parent raised babies - co feeding

[debbielabella]

Do the breeder pairs get upset when the babies are taken for hand-feeding? I think I would not be able to do that. Do they care less if you take them at 6 weeks rather than 3? For smaller species such as the Pyrrhura, or linnies, is it more feasible to co-feed the babies along with the parents? thanks in advance.

[xafsmom]

If your pairs allow it, then most amenable parent birds would allow co-parenting. The point isn't for you to hand-feed it, but to take them out between parental feedings and play with the young. If you're hand-feeding it, then the parent is going to get frustrated when the baby doesn't exhibit proper feed responses and start to nip wingtips and toes to instigate the response.

If your parent birds are agressive in their nest defenses, then co-parenting will probably not be possible. I've co-parented several of clutches with my pet breeders, but I wouldn't attempt it with wild stock.

As for when to start co-parenting with a pair that allows it, I wouldn't touch a baby until the eye slits were just about to open. Whatever week that is per species (unsure on linnies, I don't breed them).

[xafsmom]

Sorry, forgot to answer your second question.

Some people will go on and on about how traumatic it is to remove chicks or eggs from birds. That's pretty much putting human conceived emotion onto the bird. In all truth, they don't care. Period.

The only negative thing about removing babies when young, is your birds can go into breeding hyperdrive to replace the missing chicks. Most don't though, this is more common when removing eggs, not babies.

In all actuality, you want to remove the babies when it's best for you to socialize them. That works out to be when the eyes are just beginning to open if your parent pair is skiddish, and close to that time but pre-fledging if the parent pair is a calm pair. That gives you time to socialize the babies into pet quality birds.

Or, you can buy into the BS about letting the parents entirely raise the birds and only netting them in after full weaning and trying to turn them into viable, pet quality birds. That's easiest for humans (and bird mills love pushing this concept, believe me!), but it does not make a better pet bird. History proves that.

[Lisa B]

I co parented all my tiel babies. the parents were great over it, but thats all the experience i have...not much.

[becca623]

I'm a huge fan of co-parenting. I would do it that way. I want the bird to know it's a bird and to feel the comfort that a parent can offer 24/7 in the nest that a human cannot.
Have you been to Home She discusses it some on her site. I think most great breeders do it whenever possible.

[nanmadpad]

I am glad you asked that question because i have wondered myself if it was cruel and tramatic to pull chicks from the parents. I am glad xafsmom answered and set my mind at rest. Like she said i was thinking like a human and not a bird and thought how horrible it must be for these poor birds to have there babies stolen from them.

[sodakat]

My Eclectus experience:

I think co-parenting is a rather misleading term. Socialized, parent-raised babies is what I am hoping for.

You know I have a real interest in this, with my breeding pair, and I think Xafsmom pretty much nailed it: I don't see any safe way to co-feed a chick with its parents.

If you have an easy-going pair, especially the hen, that allows you to take the chicks out and handle them, then replace them without her biting the babies, you can cuddle the babies and get them used to human touch. This is what I'm doing with our current clutch. We will see how tame they become/remain once they fledge. I'm doing my very best this time at touching them, holding them, and talking to them daily, but they are quite anxious to get back into the nest box at the end our our sessions. They are fine while I am holding them, but do want to get back to momma. In other words, they are not dependent on me for feeding, therefore do not crave my attention. Also, the first week after their eyes opened when I started holding them daily, I had to be very, very careful when I took them out or replaced them as Rosie was pushing or pulling at my hand to stop me and if she would have been more agressive she could have easily hurt one of the chicks. I was willing to get bit rather than let her bite them, but it was a bit stressful, and she's very bonded to me, so with a wilder hen, I think it would be too dangerous for the chicks. There are ways to slide a piece of cardboard between the cage and the entrance to the nestbox, but that resulted in extra stress for my parent birds, so instead I take the babies out when Rosie is in the box or on my shoulder when I'm putting them back, as she seems to prefer that.

The two (now 7 month old) girls from our first clutch, however, are fairly wild. By that I mean they do not care to be held. I was nervous taking them out of the nest too much and did not really handle them other than once a week for pictures. This is because I did not want to take a chance at the parents hurting or rejecting them. Now that both I and the parents are more experienced, I know I can safely handle their babies.

When the first two were between 8 and 10 weeks old I could easily pick them up, but once they fledged, that was over. If I had clipped their wings then, maybe they would have been tamer; but I felt it important to let them fledge completely before clipping. So, by the time their parents weaned them, they were flying like pros and had no interest in hopping on our hands! We are now gradually clipping to get them more under control, while still allowing them flight. One will take treats from my hand willingly and once in a while step up, but the other will not (yet).

I don't know what the high end age would be that you could pull chicks successfully for hand-feeding. I think it would be a real struggle to get these two, who are six weeks old, to take formula now if they were removed from their parents. But, since I know nothing about hand feeding I could be way off.

The two breeders I've now corresponded with who have socialized parent raised babies say it can be done with daily handling. We'll see how it goes.

Kathy

[xafsmom]

Birds are instinctual about their young and eggs. They did a huge study on the levels of anxiety and depression using OW Amazons at UCD about 7 years back and pretty much showed that losing a mate? Upsetting. Losing eggs and chicks = triggers them to lay again. Birds are hardwired to protect the nest and nurture it, and moderately nurture the chicks. You'll often find hens of most every species will toss out older chicks if they re-lay eggs. You'll also find that some hens are so nest protective, they consider chicks as a threat.

A common thing you'll find with Amazons and Macaws is that if they feel human intrusion is too much, they'll kill their own chicks. Greys are prone to bite the feet off their young. Poicephalus are such iffy parents that one clutch will be nurtured and the next destroyed so viciously that you see body parts (in the wild too) and that's it.

Now, you'll find people who vehemently disagree with me on this, so it's something you should research on your own and come to your own conclusions about. I have one hen that loves babies so much, I co-parent. She'll foster babies even when she's not nesting! When I see such devotion to something, I cultivate it. But, she's an unusual bird.

[Jan]

As a rule for me I do not mess too much with my parents eggs or babies. Especially the Amazons... they do not take too kindly to you messing with their babies and will either hurt or kill thei babies sometimes, depends on the parents.

Last year I did do with my Coral Bill Pionus, they had one baby in the nest and I left him in there until he was 2-1/2 months old and during that time once she mostly stayed out of her box during the day, I would go in and handle him and take him out and letting them see me with him. They were not too overly concerned. He turned out to be sweet.

I think the birds usually know when you are going to pull the babies and I think that some of mine even think it is time so hurry up! I only have one hen who takes it really hard and she will remain in her nest for upto a month or so after I have pulled her eggs, and I can not leave her eggs to pip because she or the male will eat their chicks. If you look i nthe Pionus Forum area here on the board, about my thread on Coral Bills... the photos I show on page two of that thread - those 2 babies are in the nest and the parents are not too concerned of me messing with their babies. But she is staying mostly out of her nest but when it was earlier on, I do not do that.

It's all situational and depends on parents mostly. Like I mentioned, I never ever will mess with any of my Blue Front Amazon parent's chicks and I also use to have Orange Wing Amazons too and they would literally hurt their babies if I messed with their babies at all.

[xafsmom]

The most depressed I've ever seen my hens is when I don't take the babies at the normal time. LOL They usually get giddy, bathe, sing, play like crazy when I pull them. Some even begin to hurl the chicks towards the peek door at me, or shove them over to me in excitement.

So much for trauma.