DEBATE: Yawning Birds

[BirdsUnlimited]

Dozens of seminars by respected aviculturists and veterinarians, including Dr's Clubb, George Smith, Ritchie, Graham, Joyner, VanZandt, Flammer... Perhaps they use the term mandibles casually but not one of them that I can remember ever used maxilla to describe the upper beak in a parrot.
Through personal conversations with a respected vet, Dr David Phalen who practiced locally for several years the beaks were also referred to as mandibles.
Cornell Lab of Ornithology in their at home biology course the bill is described as upper and lower mandibles, seminar 1, page 2.
I also worked in a dental office for many years and it was described to me that the maxilla is fixed to the skull and that is what differntiates it from the jaw or mandible.
I could find more instances if I wanted to delve through my library but have limited time. You supported your stance on the maxilla w/ plenty of info. I stand corrected.
I still don't believe parrots yawn.

[yehudasf]

BS"D

BirdsUnlimited:

seminars by respected aviculturists and veterinarians, including Dr's Clubb, George Smith, Ritchie, Graham, Joyner, VanZandt

Is this the same Fern Van Sant DVM, linked to above?:

...The mandible and maxilla should meet and be bilaterally symmetrical. ...

BirdsUnlimited:

I still don't believe parrots yawn. ...Dr'sClubb...

Since you cite the Doctors Clubb (Kevin & Susan) here is a quote from one of their articles referring to parrots yawning

Stretching: After resting, stretching will often occur before going on to another activity. Stretching will be in the form of yawning, arching both wings over the back or fully spreading one wing and leg of the same side, downwards...which is usually done on both sides.

LINK TO SOURCE
If you were to refer to the Sticky "Viridian Rose .... post 32 picture # 2, you would see photographic evidence of a Macaw Yawning, mandible & maxilla parted, tongue visible, just after having awakened from a nap. Psittacines yawn, of this there can be no competent denial, perhaps some human companions simply have not had the chance to observe the psittazens at the correct times.

[Adi]

Well, I seem to agree with Monica that there appears to be different types of yawns and one most definitely seems to be when they are tired.

As was previously mentioned, birds do have efficient respiratory systems but everything slows down as they are approaching the sleep phase. Perhaps their yawn is a way to "jump start" their system back to it's normal function?

In humans, I believe that it is also said that yawning, since it is "contagious" would also be a type of primal communication. A way to get the pack ready to sleep or such...

If parrots, also being flock animals, are affected by such contagious yawning, it leads me to believe that they might also use yawning as some means of communication.

Very interesting thread Monica! Thanks for bringing this up

[BirdsUnlimited]

Sorry, I still disagree with you and others that birds yawn. I see birds open their beaks, observe the tongue, stetch their necks out, but I don't believe it's a yawn like we do. If you could observe the crop at this time you'd see it contract and move food up and out, easy to see on baby birds that are not yet feathered. Birds will do this before they go to sleep and during a resting period where most people would think they're sleeping, moving food, not yawning in my opinion.
To rub the ears of a bird and get it to give the impression of a yawn is a reflex not a yawn.
To say ones bird will yawn after they do it, coincidence that the bird open its beak. Anthropomorphism
If a birds "yawns" several times in a row is it really tired? My feeling is that a bird can mobilize some food easier than other food from its crop and needs to work at getting it through its system.
Like I said above, I've heard talks from many veterinarians and perhaps they use the term mandibles in refering to the beaks in general, casually, for the layperson. Never heard them use maxilla at a seminar.

I'm also not crazy about the cute names people make up to humanize their birds, fids, psittazens...

[Freedomoflight]

OUCH. Had to bring up the anthromorphism didnt you?
If people so often anthromoprhis their pets, why is their a mental health book specifically on animals, written by a veterniaran?
The bird happens to have his beak open....
NO. Birds want to be a part of the flock- so they mimic us. I was holding my caique last night, and he was tired (how could I tell? His eyes were soft, he wasnt bouncing all over the place, and he was practically falling asleep in my hands at one point) and he yawned MULTIPLE TIMES. Not the ear pressure type yawn- not the moving food around in his crop type yawn, his crop didnt move, etc, but a OMG I AM TIRED MOM IS IT TIME FOR BED YET YAWN. I put him in is cage, where he climbed into bed.
So yes, birds yawn when they are tired, I think the above scenario proves that quite well...
and as for the cutesy names....
Your mother gave you nicknames as a child. Our pets are our children. We treat them as such. So we give them nicknames. I call Higgins Higgy all the time. He calls me Mommy. Whats the big deal? You are the type of person to read Inside the Animal Mind and agree that animals have no counsiousness.....

[Monica]

I only hope that this doesn't become an arguement, though I was awaiting for someone to say that birds do not yawn (as BirdsUnlimited has-I thank you for that) so that someone else with as much knowledge could go into greater detail about birds yawning (Yehudasf, I thank you too for the detail). This only provided more information from the other person, at which forth, both views could then be seen.

Now BirdsUnlimited, I can understand your point, though am wondering your ideal thoughts of right before a bird takes a nap or goes to sleep. The bird mearly opens it's upper mandible (or maxilla), and you can see the tongue. The bird does not however stretch out its neck, just a simple movement of the upper portion of the beak, and possibly a slight one of the lower portion of the beak. In your words, how would you describe this as the bird seems to be taking in air, but is not moving it's neck and is sitting in a rather normal way. This movement of the beaks and inhaling can sometimes be followed by fluffing up of the feathers, stretching, or even going to sleep.

[BirdsUnlimited]

Two things may be going on in my mind that a bird may be doing if it's not "yawning". One, birds don't have to stretch out their necks to tighten the crop to mobilize food. It's tough to see a crops contents and its movements in an adult feathered bird, babies are a lot easier. It may still be moving food but without the stretch. I hand feed hundreds of birds a year and I can watch a baby bird, seemingly asleep, flex the crop, the crop lifts slightly then relaxes and it can be noticeably smaller. The bird never bats an eye or opens the beak, but it may nash or grind the beaks back and forth a bit.
Number two, I think some birds tend to align their beaks prior to sleeping, perhaps temporal mandibular joint disfunction or beaks that simply may wear oddly. Some lories will wipe down their beaks with their tongue before retiring as well. Kind of like the feather fluff out, just getting things in the right place. Those are my thoughts, nice question. Thanks
As it so happens, I find it hard that no one has mentioned an article in the October 2005 Bird Talk by Dr. Margaret Wissman, pages 60 and 61. It talks about bodily functions, passing gas, burping, coughing, and yes, yawning. Oops, she also calls the upper beak a mandible.

[yehudasf]

BS"D

birdsunlimited:

October 2005 Bird Talk by Dr. Margaret Wissman, pages 60 and 61. It talks about bodily functions, passing gas, burping, coughing, and yes, yawning. Oops, she also calls the upper beak a mandible.

Many veterinarians have the unfortunate habit of "dumbing down" correct physiological terms when speaking to lay persons. Much like a physician speaking to a patient, or a juvenile patients parent. Rarely will a physician tell a parent to expect a noticable haematoma proximal to the point of trauma on the gnathion, rather the physician would likely say "there will be a large, dark bruise toward the bottom of his chin". While the second is passingly correct, it is not completely physiologically accurate. the gnathion is the most inferior point of the joining of the madible at the midline, so the actual location is somewhat mis-stated in the "dumbed - down" version. The best analogy is for someone to refer to feet as leg hands, & hands as arm hands. It is precisely as fallacious to refer to an "upper" & "lower" mandible. There is but one mandible in psittacine physiology, it is the lower beak. The upper beak is the maxilla. Period. This is the verdict of all recognised Avian physiology authorities, texts, & experts. Merely because one can find examples of sloppy naming conventions from some few who should know better, does not change the fact. As a scientist & retired physician, I value greatly exactitude in communication. There is no room, amongst persons of honest intent for falsity in terminology or dishonesty in academic assertion. Refer to any modern Avian medical/behavioural tomes, & lo & behold, all note true yawning, pseudo-yawning (gape, or gaping) in response to respiratory distress, or as a result of manual auricular (ear-canal feather tuft) stimulation. There is really no possibility of arguement, only of stubborn refusal to abandon one's (false) position when confronted with fact. Birds yawn, & like primates they are subject to suggestive yawning, both in the wild when they observe a flock mate yawning, and in domestic reared when they observe their human yawning. There is nothing anthropomorphic about this, no more than observing that a domestic bred pet psittacine will begin closing it's eyes when it observes it's human companion doing the same. Social creatures tend to "mirror" each others activities, sometimes with uncanny synchronicity.

[Tiki]

I've seen my tiels yawn close to bedtime. I haven't seen Chaska yawn yet, she just climbs in her happy hut and crashes out. Have I ever mentioned how cute she looks in her happy hut?

[BirdsUnlimited]

Holy Cow dude, I said a couple of posts ago that I stand corrected!
Now correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will), isn't it proper when using latin names that they are always in italics, the genus name is always capitalized and the species and supspecies name is always lower case?