lets talk serious disinfectants

[Alyce Johnson]

Specifically, I'm interested in things that *kill* viruses, fungi & bacteria. Dead.
Not for use "everyday" but for special situations, as when you have reason to think a fid is sick with something contagious, or when there's something nasty going around & you want to protect either fids or humans (or both).

I'd like scientifically based responses, from folks who either know something about chemistry and/or biology. Or who truly know about bird keeping on a long term basis (multiple bird & multiple species households) and have actually used these chemicals, or personally know people (or aviaries) that have used them.

I'm not interested in the standard "green" organic products are best" opinon.
I share that view point, actually. But I also know something about biology, and some viruses are especially hard to kill. Which is why the nasty stuff was originally invented.

Also, I have some safer options already. Such as a steamer, GSE & Simple Green - which is more allergenic & toxic to me personally than bleach solution - my husband has to use it & air out the room before I can be around it! Go figure.

My focus in starting this thread is what to have on hand, should this bird flu thing, or some other serious contagious thing actually be going around. I'm not planning to use all these products every day, or maybe ever, but I want to be prepared, should an illness break out in my home, or should something serious (such as avian flu might turn out to be) actually be afoot. I'm not paranoid it will happen. But it certainly could - if not soon then eventually. (Viruses mutate - it's just what they do for a living - literally.) I have a living granny who survived the 1918 pandemic - these events do happen, and youre likely to live to see one, if you only live long enough. (Granny is now 99 & will be 100 in April if she makes it.)

I'm less interested in owning only safe products - you have to balance safety with what it does, and how you use it. Yes, I want some safe products to use where my birds (or my own skin) will of necessity come into contact with them. (see above) But I also want some "nuke 'em" style options, for inantimate objects, surfaces etc where direct contact is not an issue. That's what I'm primarily asking about.

I have Novolsan & I've orderd Vanodine18 and also the stronger version that is not recommended for birds (to use as an outdoor foot bath, to disinfect shoes etc) before coming indoors where the birds live. Also, I'd like opinions on these compounds in terms of killing power. Opinions?

How commonly are they used in aviaries or by breeders, for ex? And how caustic/harmful are they, to both birds & humans?

The safety precautions for using Novolsan are amazing - and frankly a little scary. I've never seen any safety measures that detailed except on a lab chemical bottle. And the folks who sold it to me at the bird store assured me it was safe - told me it is so safe that they put a tiny bit of it in the food/water of baby birds who suffer from "slow crop"! Could that actually be true, given all the precautions on the label??? How do the babies survive it, if so? The label makes the stuff sound truly poisonous.

You see how I have come to be confused - the information I'm getting from different sources doesnt seem like it could all be true.

Also, I understand that Vanodine18 & its stronger cousin are Iodophors? There is an excellent article in this board's archive Re bird diseases which lists off advantages & disadvantages of various categories of chemical compounds, but Iodophors werent on the list at all. What do you all think? Anybody know their chemistry? Do they really kick ass the way Dupont claims they do? I have no idea what they are, except that they involve iodine. Any input is welcome, since I'm soon going to be the proud (or perhaps just gullible) owner of 2 different strengths of the stuff.

I'd also like some additional ideas for safety proceedures should the need arise to protect the fids from external contagion. All I know about so far is the foot dip idea. I've never worked in a clean room or hospital, so I'm clueless about these types of proceedures at all, much less on how to adapt them to home use.

Anything else besides the above chemicals that I should add to the arsenal?

Also, what about a range of products, some of which *are* more "bird (and human) safe"? For other uses, not foot dipping obviously. And not sanitizing cage components on a urgent basis. I already have GSE for their water and use a steamer regularly plus clorox wipes now & then, and poop off (just to clean the obvious mess, not to disinfect).

And here's a safety question. Vanodine-18 and Virkon-S state that they are safe for misting in the air in the presence of birds! Now personally, I'd be afraid to do that with just people present, much less birds, but apparently these compounds are used this way professionally on a regular basis? Any opinions on that? (They specify a weak solution, obviously.)

Now, I wouldnt do it on a regular basis just because I'd be afraid to breathe it regularly myself. Something tells me the USDA didnt do long term studies on what happens to the lungs of agricultural workers exposed for years to this s*** before approving it for use. But what do you folks think about using it when there is the possibility of something contagious going around, as when one bird in the household is sick (or a human is sick with something serious)?
Lots of the truly nasty stuff does end up being airborne.

Let the opinions roll!

[felisdomesticus]

I am on my way out the door to work but just wanted to throw this out there--maybe yehuda or others who are know about these things can comment . I will do my best to find the information this afternoon when I get home from school.

I have read that oil of oregano is a substance that has been shown to be effective in killing bird flu virus--I don't remember if it was specifically H5N1 or just the H5 family or what. This was presented in the context of people INGESTING it as an alternative to Tamiflu. I wonder if it could be used as a disinfectant as well like we use GSE?

[The Outlaw]

I'm not sure about Virkon 18. I do use Virkon S and that turns yellow (in the US, pink in England) when mixed with water. It was the only disinfectant approved in California when END was a problem 2 years ago. It has a long list of cautions, but is considered safe once mixed. The powder is very fine and there are cautions all over the container discussing inhaling dangers.

These products mentioned are must haves for serious bird owners. You have to have them on hand BEFORE you need them. Once you have a sick bird or once a alert about END, Bird Flu, etc. occurs, you will have trouble acquiring them on short notice. You can read lots about Virkon S by simply doing a Google. I get mine in 10 pound containers through Avitec.com. Its pricey, but it you go in with a few other bird owners, its affordable. I usually repackage it in one pound sizes, print out the cautions and mixing instructions and we simply divide the costs per pound equally.

[Alyce Johnson]

Oops! I got my "V" words mixed up. (I've also corrected the main thread.)

The iodophor that I ordered in 2 different strengths is Vanodine.
Vanodine -18 is supposed to be safe for birds among many other animals.

Virkon-S is the yellow powder one. I havent ordered that one (yet). I wanted to know what folks think - it is ungodly expensive and I have nobody to split the costs with, right now. And I think 10 lbs of it would last me a *very* long time!

What do people think about using these 2 chemicals in dilute form as aerosol disinfectants (for airborne pathogens)? Their info says you can spray it in the presence of birds & people w/out any protective measures needing to be taken.

For those of you who've used Virkon-S do you think that's true, that it's safe to use it that way? Has anybody got any experience at all with Vanodine-18?

[The Outlaw]

I'm absolutely certain its safe to use as described by the manufacturer. After all, it was developed for the poultry industry. I know that some zoos use it as well.

[Tiki]

I myself am no scientist or expert but this is what my AV uses and I bought a small bottle of it to disinfect after one of my birds came down with Megabacteria (copy-paste from Megabacteria thread):

I bought some professional strength veterinary disinfectant. It's called F10sc, active consituents: 54g/L benzalkonium chloride 4g/L polyhexamethylene biguanide hydrochloride. It is what my AV uses to disinfect his instruments and perches and stuff between patients and it is bird safe.

It is imported from South Africa.

[Alyce Johnson]

Well, I got the virkon 18 & the stronger version too, today. They have sulfuric acid and phosphoric acid (I think it was) as well as iodine. They sound pretty wicked. And it takes just 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of the stronger one to sterilize water. Wow. That's almost scary. But probably not a bad thing to have on hand.

[Lisa B]

Vanodine.
yep yep yep...thats what I use.....
here is a helpful ink....

http://bunnyrabbit.com/info/vanodine...ve_against.htm

i have used it since the early 90's when a breeder friend introduced me to it. It is safe in the event that you do not rince every single drop off, unlike bleach!
Some breeders ((NOT ME)) put a drop in thier water to prevent bacteria growth. It is a very small amount mixed per gallon. I never did it, so i did not pay attention.
I add a few drops into my Ivory liquid soap and disinfect thier stuff that way.
for serious stuff that needs to be cleaned, I bleach(outside of course) rince, bleach, rince and vanodine , rince~~~~dry in sun, or oven.
Thier wood toys, I vanodine.(diluted as instructed)


as far as spraying it in the presence of birds & people w/out any protective measures needing to be taken...I never spray anything in thier presence.

[sleslie]

From what I have read Virkon would be my choice, for serious viruses. Although I don't have any hands on experience with it.
http://www.antecint.co.uk/go.htm