Hybrid Macaws & conservation topics

[Monica]

As with the last thing you posted, if it was a large group of macaws of various types, the majority would probably pick out their own species, but at the same time two odd couples may come together and produce a hybrid... This is somewhat how the galatiel and a hybrid princess came about... Well, not quite with the galatiel... The galatiel was created when a galah too was kept in an aviary of cockatiels... as far as the hybrid princess, that was a mixed flight aviary (from my understanding...). You can read about both below:
http://www.talkingbirds.com.au/galatiel.php
http://www.talkingbirds.com.au/scarlet_full.php

Now as far as anything, IMO, race and breed is pretty much the same thing. And indeed, the macaws probably did have a common ancestor! The ara macaws PROBABLY share the same common ancestor as the aratinga conures! HOWEVER, species are created in the wild when an isolated group of birds move to another climate and breed there for so long that their appearences differ to that of the original flock... This probably holds true for greenwings and scarlets... as it probably does with blue and golds, and blue throats.... As far as conures, you have cherry heads, mitreds, finchs, white eyed, and even cubans. Some of these species are actually mistaken for another, so it's very possible that many of our supposed pure bred birds are hybrids! Most people can't even tell the difference between a cherry head and a mitred... Let alone a cherry head and a finchs. Then you have the mitreds and the white eyeds that could be mistaken for eachother almost! Or compare the white eyeds to the cubans! There is no doubt that many of these birds have the same common ancestor, but that doesn't really give us any right to cross breed them in captivity.

Breeds come about by breeding for specific traits. This is how english budgies came about (they are larger than normal, they are able to raise their crest, etc). In the parrot world, English budgies come closest to being a breed of their own! Heck, they've got their own name to distinguish them from the regular budgies! Of course they all originate from Australia!

The main thing that distinquishes between breeds and species, is that species occure naturlly in the wild, where-as breeds are man-made. Sadly though, many people get the two terms mixed up, especially when it comes to birds! Several people often ask what breed of bird they should get. Of course some people may also confuse breeds with mutations...

Breed vs. Hybrid

Many people confuse these two terms. A breed is a man made variation within a species. Domestic dogs have thousands of breeds, from the doberman to husky to terrier, but all of these are the same species. Breeds arise during domestication, the process by which man breeds an animal for specific characteristics until it becomes a seperate species from the original wild population. Parrots aren't really domesticated, though some, like budgies, are getting there. You can already see two breeds developing within the budgie species: English (show) and American (pet). Breeds are made through selective breeding, the same way you would select birds to isolate a color mutation.

As far as that quote, one can read more at: http://feistyhome.phpwebhosting.com/hybrids.htm

[Freedomoflight]

'Other than that, I'm not so sure there's that much meaningful difference between them, genetically speaking". If there wasnt, why wouldnt they be labeled subspecies instead of species?
"Do they interbreed freely, when introduced geographically to one another? " Only if they are forced to- i.e a female B&G is the middle of a deforstation zone, the rest of her flock has been wiped out, and the only other bird is a male GW. Because the instinct to procreate in a bird is so strong, they will mate and the offspring will live- but they are hybrids. It doesnt happen daily, and it is rare.
"If so, are they truly different creatures (as the designation "species" suggests)? " Yes, they are. This is probably a horrible example, but a galah (cockatoo, rose breasted) and a cockatiel have sucessfully hybridized and reared a chick. This simply means that they share a common ancestor- and they are similiar enough to hybridize, but the chick is sterile. Both birds are still of different species, that classsification has not changed.

[Tiki]

Interesting point Yehuda makes about hybridizing plants. I have a huge collection of hibiscus and I would say that 90% are hybrids and they are all stunning! But I don't think that normal hibiscus are on any endangered species list, they grow wild all over Queensland and several Pacific Islands and Asia.

I don't agree with hybridizing parrots on purpose because they fetch a higher price. I do realize that in mixed aviaries accidents happen like the Galatiel in Australia. I would like to see existing hybrid parrots loved and cared for, but not bred.

[Alika]

The biggest difference is this:

One type of hybrid was created by nature. The other was created by man playing nature or, if you will, God.

I think the first is okay, and the second is wrong when done on purpose for a profit.

Monica is correct. Species evolve and arise by intermixing to create hybrids and simply adapting to a changing environment. I believe the Buffon's macaw is a recognized naturally occuring hybird, though i could be wrong.

[felisdomesticus]

Originally Posted by Alyce Johnson

Scientific classifications are created to allow us humans to distinguish between animals, so we can be sure we're talking about the same thing. In other words, taxonomy is purely a bunch of man made categories, which hopefully are fairly well matched to what Nature has actually produced.

but they are constantly being revised and rearranged--they are very similar to natural "categories" in that only members of the same species can produce fertile offspring--99% of the time.

the more variation you can produce in a species--the better the chance of survival in the event of environmental or catastrophic change. If we all have different genes, we may not all die when an asteroid hits earth, when bird flu comes around, when a nuclear bomb goes off, etc. (very dramatic examples)

[Monica]

I've heard of a possible natural occuring hybrid in rosellas that could have possibly become it's own species, but it's only a theory... I couldn't say about any other type of bird that has possibly done this...

And I didn't quite mean that species come about my hybridizing in the wild then becoming secluded... I meant it to be more like you have a large group (or flock) of birds, and part of that flock ends up getting secluded from the rest of the flock (i.e. say a mountain range), but they are STILL purebreds. This flock that gets secluded in another area breeds in this area long enough that they become differen than the original flock... I'll try and put it into theory though I don't really know how it ACTUALLY came about... using the examples of GW's and scarlets...


Now saying that if in theory, there were ONLY greenwing macaw flocks, and no other type of red macaw existed, this would be the only red macaw species. Now say that part of original macaws get separated from the huge flock via a mountain range or they fly off too far to be any close to the original group. This new flock ends up breeding where they take root, and over time they become smaller and loose their facial patches. After several hundred (probably) years of being separated, a lot of the green on their wings change and the majority, if not all, becomes yellow instead. It then can be classified as a separate species, the scarlet macaw. I'm not saying this is how it happened, but think in theory, they are still purebreds, it's just that over years of being separated from the original flock, they have changed in appearance which has also altered their genetic make-up to a slight degree.

[Monica]

"Do they interbreed freely, when introduced geographically to one another?"

Just to add on to that, a quote from the last site that I posted in the last post... And it's talking about how species come about...

"Eventually the birds became so different that they no longer recognized plainer birds as being the same species."


Now, to give proof that two or more species will not breed together (under normal circumstances) in the wild, even when when they are in the same georgraphical range, this should explain it well enough...















With all those photos in mind, yes it's possible for birds of different species to live in the same area without hybridizing, but the most likely case that they WOULD, IF indeed, is said to be if all the birds have paired up except for a few random birds from each group, and maybe you might end up with an odd pair because the birds instincts to reproduce could be so strong that they end up pairing with a different species... but mainly because they couldn't find a suitable mate of their OWN species...

[The Outlaw]

Monica:

I'm glad you used the clay licks photos for they truly show the natural occuring true species, side by side. In the wild, the scarlet macaw is much less aggressive than the GW macaw. In fact, they fight for nesting sites and will evict chicks and eggs if given the chance. They realize that good nest sites are rare and defend them with all that they have. If they were accomodating to each other, no doubt there would be more natural hybrids. In fact, the compete with each other. That explains why you see concentrations of one species over another in each of the territories. Though they may be forced to share some of the same space, when it comes to nesting they will not tolerate other species in too close proximity. After all, many eat similar diets and need fresh water and of course the clay in the evening. Its Nature doing what Nature does best. Survival of the fittest.

[Monica]

It's actually the best thing I could think of when it came to common birds sharing similar space!

And to add on to that, there is a flock of cherry head conures in San Fransisco. Many of them are actually hybrids as well! There were two blue crown conures (two males I believe, or possibly even a female) that were in the flock, but they differed so much from the regular conures that there were no hybrids from them... HOWEVER, a female mitred did come into the flock, and she actually reproduced with at least two cherry heads. This is and is not, a good example of birds 'in the wild'. The blue crowns looked so different than the cherry heads that they were actually shunned away (unless Connor... poor Connor... had defended a weak cherry head and the others were picking on it...). Though the mitred looked a lot like the cherry heads so there was breeding there. HOWEVER, there is not a wild flock of mitreds in San Fransisco... Only the cherry head flock that now has at least 3rd generation hybrids in it by now! In their NATURAL habitat, this probably wouldn't have occurred, but giving the "special" circumstances, it did. The mitred was actually once a pet, as were many of the cherry heads. This is most noticeable when a couple of them pluck themselves (wild birds DO NOT pluck).

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by Monica

"Do they interbreed freely, when introduced geographically to one another?"

Just to add on to that, a quote from the last site that I posted in the last post... And it's talking about how species come about...

"Eventually the birds became so different that they no longer recognized plainer birds as being the same species."


Now, to give proof that two or more species will not breed together (under normal circumstances) in the wild, even when when they are in the same georgraphical range, this should explain it well enough...















With all those photos in mind, yes it's possible for birds of different species to live in the same area without hybridizing, but the most likely case that they WOULD, IF indeed, is said to be if all the birds have paired up except for a few random birds from each group, and maybe you might end up with an odd pair because the birds instincts to reproduce could be so strong that they end up pairing with a different species... but mainly because they couldn't find a suitable mate of their OWN species...

I am actually planning a visit to these clay licks in Peru in 2007! Also the Amazon, Iguassu Falls and the Pantanal to see all those birds in the wild!