Hybrid Macaws & conservation topics

[Alyce Johnson]

The photos are amazing!
I'm very envious of the person taking a trip to see them in the wild. Maybe someday.

I guess my take on "species" is that it signifies a group that can successfully interbreed (meaning the offspring are viable, and fertile, both). The mule is the classic example they give you in biology class of what happens when you mix two different species.

So, since the hybrids are themselves fertile, I tend to see this as evidence of very close genetics, between the parents. I'm still guessing you're talking about a very, very few genes.

Also, phenotype alone cant tell you if you're looking at a different species or not. Look at female & male Ekkies, for ex - they made a mistake when they originally classified them, because they look so different.

And as for voluntary segregation, well, you can go to any mall in the US and you will pretty much see humans arranged exactly in the same way as those macaws - in groups & pairs of the same color. You'll see it in any US high school cafeteria, too. In fact, in many schools you'll see a whole lot greater physical distance between the different groups than those birds are maintaining. And you'll see more wariness of each other than they're displaying too, sad to say.

There's a saying, that "10 AM on Sunday morning is the most segregated time in America." And it's totally true. Given free choice, we still mostly choose to hang out with others who look and act as much like ourselves as possible.

And we often arent too receptive to the "different" ones going to school with our offspring, or moving in next door, either. Sad to say, we arent very tolerant of folks who dont look just like us, period. (And we dont have the good reasons the macaws have, to be hostile. For us, there are enough resources to go around.)

There's some thought in biologist circles that this response is genetically programed in, and derives from the need to distinguish "us" as in "thats uncle tom - I can relax" from "them" as in "thats a large furry toothsome predator - I need to Run". This theory says we are deeply programed to prefer that which is familiar to ourselves. Maybe so.

But no matter that we tend to mate with folks who look like us, and choose to live in mostly segregated neighborhoods to breed, we are still one species. (So defined because we can successfully interbreed, if we choose to, or are forced to.) And that holds even though we very frequently kill each other over breeding territory and natural resources. We even try to exterminate completely the "other" humans, on a disgustingly frequent basis.

But we're still the same species - even if we dont tend to see ourselves that way or want to act that way, much of the time.

As far as the birds goes, I do think it's worthwhile to keep the natural lines intact.
And I dont see myself buying any hybrids or breeding them any time soon.

But I dont think it's a moral issue. I still think if they choose each other in a mixed aviary, they should be allowed to breed. (You can put species on the microchip info, which is pretty permanent, unless someone is being deliberately fraudulent.)
I think we can have both, without any huge problem. So long as the hybrids are not being created for profit & promoted ahead of natural types that is.

But then, I dont believe in trying to create a market for these birds anyway. Too many end up neglected. You have to have some available, because people will always want them. But they do not fit into human lifestyles as well as dogs or cats do, so I cant see actively promoting them as pets.

They dont make great pets, in the traditional sense of that word. They are companions, but they take a lot of adaptation on the part of their humans. So I dont really believe in promoting them for profit, purebred or otherwise.

I'd like to see the gene pool preserved for eventual re-introduction into the wild - which of course means breeding them, and having human companions for them. And I'd like to see legal ownership options to prevent poaching in the wild.
So yes, we do need to breed them and sell them. But we dont need to push them as "cool" or "high status" pets. (The way pot bellied pigs were pushed, for ex, and then most of them endded up abandoned.)

I know someone who is sound proofing her aviary so she can try to breed a pair of hyacynths. At 10K a pop (!) she already has a waiting list.

I asked her point blank if she thought people wanted them as a status symbol. (She was not amused, but then I've never been known for great tact.) Obviously, in the upscale area she lives in, the neighbors are not going to tolerate the noise for long - and the new owners probably arent going to, either, in the long run.

But if you can buy one, and keep it even for a little while, that's certainly saying something about your disposable income. So, I feel fairly sure that's why there's a wait for these babies - and the pair even hasnt mated yet. To me, that's kind of unethical. Because at 10K each, I think she's unlikely to be too worried about the motives of the buyers.

[Jme8672]

Monica,
Isn't there also pics with the macaws with mealy amazons? They show blue and golds, scarlets and green wings I think it is with mealy amazons among them also. They don't seem to just "hang" out with their own species. LOL

[Monica]

Lets see what I can find...

Click to enlarge this photo...



These are probably the ones you are talking about? Well, at least as far as amazons and macaws go.... or other varied types of birds...








Closest I've come so far... no greenwings, but there are 3 different species of macaws in this photo still...

[Alyce Johnson]

Now if we could only get people to behave as well as macaws - the world might be a more peaceful place. They are soo beautiful - even more so when you see them all together!

[spectre]

My two cents is that these species do not tend to interbreed in the wild; it is why they maintain the unique identities they have. We have done enough to them without having to resort to playing god. I am firmly against hybridizing, I believe existing birds should be well cared (as should any creature) for but that is it. There is a clear distinction between breeds and species and simply looking at the lack of interbreeding in any wild flock points it out. Yes, outliers occur but unless the result is evolutionarily advantageous it is a temporary blip.

We are never going to be able to reintroduce these guys, mankind is too shortsighted and the Spix Macaw is one great example of what happens when we try. We need to preserve their identities simply because it is the right thing to do. When one discusses the purity, or viability of populations it is important to keep in mind that we have a limited supply of these creatures. In the long run any hybridization that mixes will dilute the gene pool. As for the genetic similarity – if you compared a frog’s DNA to ours you would find very little difference. I think taxonomy in general has moved well past its original, highly appearance based, classification to more of a real science with merit. If you want any real genetic dissimilarity you would need to move beyond ambulatory organisms in general. Here are a couple interesting links
http://waynesword.palomar.edu/trfeb98.htm

http://mclibrary.nhmccd.edu/taxonomy/taxonomy.html

http://mclibrary.nhmccd.edu/taxonomy/taxonomy.html

http://calspace.ucsd.edu/virtualmuseum/litu/05_1.shtml
(click on the little diagram to the right, the distance between branches is a signifier of genetic dissimilarity)

One thing that immediately pops out is the drastic change from the old view of plants, animals, etc. Now we find other branches on the tree of life populated by odd and strange things such as the organisms living in the hot springs in Yellowstone or in tremendously hot washes of sulfur in hydrothermal vents. Life is a beautiful and diverse thing. We need to cherish it, not mold it into something with specific colors.

I'm always a bit torn by owning parrots as there has been a tremendous amount of evil associated with them but ultimately, if it were not for the interest in them as pets and by aviaries, many of these guys would ultimately fade away like the Glaucous Macaw. That is my solace. Ownership, in my opinion, is the lesser of two evils.


An Aside-
If those pictures are from the site I posted you should probably get the guys permission and/or cite them. That organization uses its proceeds for conservation and has a disclaimer saying the pictures are copyrighted.

A Second Aside- One area in Astronomy which is recently becoming interesting is the field of astrobiology. Generally I thought this was a bunch of BS before bothering to attend a few seminars and do some reading. Now I think the subject is fascinating. It is my opinion that it is ultimately a bit silly because of how improbable it is that we would ever find other life but what I like about the subject is that it scientificaly demonstrated that life can spring up and even thrive under the most obscene environments check here

http://www.astrobiology.com/

http://astrobiology.arc.nasa.gov/

It is actually partially from my studies in this area (purely a hobby) that I came to the conclusion that life is best left as it is.

[Alyce Johnson]

Jared - Well said!
And thanks for all the cool links, too.

As I said earlier, this discussion has been very educational.
I didnt know anything much about hybrids at all, at the start, and I have to say that my opinions are different, now. As I also said at the start, I didnt buy my hybrid bird - she was a rescue. I do agree that we shouldnt play god - I honestly thought that hybrids originally came about more as a voluntary thing, between the birds. (Simply as a result of having been put in an artificial environment, where the issues of natural ranges didnt factor into the birds' choices of mates.) I didnt realize that they were created solely for marketing purposes. (I assumed the "true" types were the more desirable pets.) My own hybrid is beautiful - but not nearly as striking as a purebred, because her colors are more mixed up, or "muddied".

And as I have said many times now, I have grave reservations about breeding any of the larger birds, as I think they require more care and accomodation to the bird than most pet owners are really willing & able to provide. Folks buy them for their feathers and then tire of the work, noise, mess & expense involved - very quickly.

[spectre]

My own hands down favorite hybrid here is Dustin's. It is quite an unlikely mix.

[Dustin]

Jared:
I have been meaning to get some pictures of all of boys up, but haven't gotten around to taking any lately!

I just wanted to point out that i did not go out lookign to buy the Hybrid. They were both in need of a home(previous owner died) and i took them in sight unseen!

Dusty

[spectre]

I'm not being critical of owners, I think the creatures deserve all the love and kindness we give any bird. If you get pictures up let me know, your bird is great.

Edit-In reply to the post below, that is exactly where I am coming from. No one should feel bad about owning one of them. I'm not advocating that stance at all. It is the breeding for sale that bothers me. I'd adopt a hybrid in an instant if I had the space and opportunity.

[The Outlaw]

I always hate it when bird lovers feel they have to justify why they love their hybrids. You love them for exactly the same reasons that we all love ALL of our birds. They simply touch your soul! Don't feel embarrassed or in anyway apologetic. They are beautiful and wonderful in their own rights. We just want to ensure that the pure species stands a chance. That after all of the experimentation and the novelty wears off, that we STILL can produce the true purebreds for the next thousand years. We aren't God and we tend to make pretty bad choices in regards to all of the animals under our care. I just want to do what I can to preserve and protect the captive population. If only we could view the world through a bird's eyes and feel what they feel in their hearts. We would be better for it, I'm sure.