No More Pellets!!!!!!

[Joel]

Originally Posted by The Outlaw

Ah Joel. I was wondering when you'd check in. I don't in any way disagree with you. Its just not practical in a living situation. You amaze me that you are able to do it so well. One of these day, I'm gonna steal you away, buy an island and have all of our birds brought in. We'll have zoonetting over the whole thing and grow whatever they need. We won't need furniture or real clothes, we'll live off of the land. You'll be constantly nagging me to lay off the coconut juice and stop fermenting the banana peels. It could be fun

Hmmmmmm .....Nancy & I are gonna get nekkid together on a deserted island and live off the land ????

Ok, ok, so I am a dreamer.

Btw, : I have lots to improve on myself - in time, in time.

[FeathersNFur8]

Originally Posted by tielfan

We all know that pellets aren't natural, but there's almost nothing about keeping a bird in captivity that IS natural. Bee pollen is natural and parrots do get some in the wild, but we don't know if they're seeking it out or ingesting it incidental to something else, and we don't really know how much of it they get. The green foods they get in the wild are not things like broccoli and kale and carrots, and we don't know how close these vegetables come to replicating what they'd eat in the wild.

Excellent post.

All we can do is try to provide the nutrients that we have been told they should have, via foods that are available to us. Although, getting those nutritive values is becoming more difficult as time passes. Produce sitting in the markets loses nutrients as it ages. Processing grains can break down their nutritive values. Nutrient depleted soils grow fruits, vegetables and grains that are less nutritious than they were years ago. So even with feeding fresh, the nutrients are already depleted before they even go in the dish.

There's lots of choices, if you choose to compensate for the missing nutrients. To compensate using a natural source (such as bee pollen) makes more sense to me, than using synthetic vitamins, such as are seen in some vitamin enriched seed blends and some pellet blends.

[tielfan]

If we see others doing what we believe or have proven (or others have proven - most of it though is common sense, I think) is not the best or better way, then it (IMO) is our moral responsibility to open our mouths.

A lively discussion is healthy as long as it stays reasonably polite, and people can learn something from it. Bird nutrition is a very controversial issue, and there are a lot of conflicting claims and conflicting evidence to go with it. We all want to do what's best for our birds, so it's always helpful when people can point to some kind of independent evidence. But since the evidence points in so many different directions, in the end we each have to go with our gut feeling about which information is the most convincing.

When someone tells you that something is good or bad, it's best to do a little research before you accept or reject it. I've seen human-nutrition sites that were heartfelt and passionate in their advice, but so full of wrong information, illogical conclusions and outright scare tactics that I alternated between open-mouthed amazement and laughing out loud. I've also seen information that looked wrong on the surface but turned out to have something to it.

So my advice to everybody is to consider both sides of every issue and keep your mind as open as you can while you're doing it. Consider whether any given statement looks like a fact or an opinion, and what arguments can be made for or against it. If your original opinion was correct, you'll have a wider array of facts to back it up (and to use as ammo when discussing the subject with other people ) If you were mistaken in any way, you've just learned about a better way to do things. If you didn't have an opinion in the first place, you're now educated enough to start forming one. You win no matter what!

[tielfan]

such as are seen in some vitamin enriched seed blends

One of the problems with vitamin-enriched seed is that they do the enriching by coating the seeds with vitamins. But parrots have dry tongues so very little of the vitamins rub off the seed and onto the tongue, and most of the vitamin ends up in the trash since the bird doesn't eat the hull. I've been told that certain kinds of vitamins act as a preservative and extend the shelf of certain seeds like oats. But as far as actually nourishing your bird goes, it isn't going to do much. If you did want to give your bird synthetic vitamins, you'd be better off to buy powdered vitamins and mix them into some kind of moist food.

[cfulhage]

Originally Posted by felisdomesticus

that is true. The mature ones do not. Thanks for keeping me honest.

Well, I'm working my heiney off in A&P right now, I'm pretty excited that I'm actually understanding and retaining information!

[CALVINS MOM]

I just got through reading these various posts and my head is now spinning. Since I do not know everyone on BB very well, being somewhat of a new member, I am trying to read these posts and convince myself there is no sarcasm involved.

I highly admire a birdie guru named Carolyn Swicegood, Moderator of Land of Vos. I found this on her website and she addresses the number of birds who feed on pollen:

According to Joseph Forshaw in Parrots of the World, many parrots feed on fruits, nuts, seeds, berries, leaf buds, blossoms and nectar procured in the treetops. The Rainbow Lory feeds on the blossoms of the Scarlet bottle-brush (Myrtacae) tree. Dusky Lories have been observed feeding in flowering Pittosporum ramiflorum trees. Varied Lorikeets have been seen feeding among the flowers of blood-woods (Eucalyptus terminalis), paperbarks (Melaleuca leucodendron), Kapok trees (Cochlospermum heteronemum) and Bauhinia trees. Black Cockatoos in the coastal woodlands of New South Wales were observed tearing apart Banksia inflorescences, presumably to extract nectar or to get at insects. Sulphur crested Cockatoos near Adelaide, South Australia have been observed feeding on the flowering heads of milk thistle (Silybum marianum) and Little Corella Cockatoos in Northern Australia have been seen feeding on the blooms of Melaleuca leucodendron. In Africa, a flock of Cape Parrots in eastern Cape Province were seen feeding on nectar from Kaffirboom (Erythrina caffra). Nyasa Lovebirds have been observed feeding on the blossoms of Acacia albida. Blue-headed Pionus and most other members of the Pionus family have a diet that consists of fruits, berries, seeds, and blossoms, generally procured among the higher branches of the trees. Orange-winged Amazons in Guyana eat the flowers and seeds of the swamp immortell (Erythrina sp.) and Black Parrots on Praslin Island eat the flowers and fruits of Ficus, Neowormia, Northea, Eugenia and Deckenia.

There are many other "winged flowers" that feed on blossoms, nectar, and pollen, although the birds of the Loridae family--Lories and Lorikeets--are perhaps the best example. ... "A bloom a day keeps the gloom away!"

Regarding "pictures as proof," I am unable to provide these. A plethora of customers who have come to our store with birds with very poor feathering have returned to say we are unbelievable; that the change in their birds' feathering has been quite dramatic. Just today, I was speaking with a customer who wanted to say thanks. He purchased a sun conure years ago from another facility. The bird was always in poor feather and could never grow a tail. He said that within 3 weeks of the bee pollen addition to his diet, his tail began to grow. He said he now has the most beautiful tail he has ever had and his feathering is smooth and "silky". Likewise, he mentioned his GC conure's feathers are magnificent. He described them as looking so shiny, you would think someone rubbed them with oil. These are accounts we hear on an almost DAILY basis. Unfortunately, I doubt these people have taken "before and after" pictures; however, in the future, I will inquire and ask them to email them to me.

One of our employees has a 20 year old BG macaw. She placed her on avian trio. She actually brought in a "before and after" of her tail feathers. It was as if it was a different bird. Prior to that, I must admit that I did not use the Avian Trio. It went home with me that night and I have been using it ever since.

I think we all strive to do what we feel is best for our birds. Anyone who knows me knows that I am a nut about my fids. I read constantly; I speak with my vet or vets with whom I come into contact about diet. I value the advice of an avian vet and the diet which I feed my birds is based upon the information I have received from my vet, along with other avian vets.

I apologize for the long post, but wish to offer some form of proof or back-up for my beliefs. Below is one article written regarding seed diets. It is authored by Margaret Wissman, DVM, DABVP. This is only one of MANY articles written and which form the basis of my personal opinion.

A Seed-Based Diet is Inappropriate for Psittacine Birds
Most parrots will preferentially consume seeds if a variety of foods are offered. Seed is high in fat, and low in most of the nutrients necessary for good health. Parrots that eat only seed will suffer from malnutrition and nutritional deficiencies, even though they may look healthy, and may even be overweight!

Budgies and cockatiels do eat primarily seeds, grass seeds and small amounts of other types of vegetation in the wild, and they will do remarkably well on a diet that would be dangerous for other species of parrot. However, feeding only seed is not recommended for any type of parrot or softbill.

Pellets Are a Good Base for a DietBecause pellets have a blend of many nutrients, each bite a bird takes will contain good nutrition. We still have much to learn regarding parrot nutrition, and pellets are formulated to provide what is thought to be a balanced diet for most psittacines. While the bird food manufacturers are constantly improving their diets, it is best to provide your bird with pellets, fresh vegetables, small amounts of fruit, table food (including pasta, whole wheat bread, small amounts of meat, cheese and other items), nuts, and perhaps, some seed.

Birds On a Pelleted Diet Usually Do Not Need Vitamin or Mineral Supplementation
Unless your avian veterinarian prescribes a supplement for a specific reason, it is most often not necessary, and can actually prove dangerous, to give a bird eating a pelleted diet a vitamin or mineral supplement. Pellets contain what should amount to adequate amounts of vitamins and minerals for the healthy psittacine. Most folks don't realize it, but it is possible to oversupplement with vitamins or minerals, resulting in toxicosis or organ damage. However, some birds may have special needs during certain times, and your avian vet may prescribe a specific supplement. For example, an African Grey parrot patient of mine, Poppy, is on a pelleted diet, supplemented with table foods, fruit and veggies. She developed seizures due to low blood calcium (hypocalcemia) and was prescribed a liquid calcium supplement to be placed in the drinking water. (This condition, peculiar to African Greys and the occasional other species, is the result of problems utilizing or absorbing calcium, and not the result of the bird not having enough calcium in the diet, usually). Poppy's blood calcium levels will be monitored periodically, to determine if the supplement is being administered at the correct dose. At this writing, Poppy's seizures have ceased, and she is doing well.

As Far As Seeds Go, There Isn't Much Difference, Nutritionally Speaking, Between Sunflower and Safflower
An old rumor used to go around about sunflower seeds having something addictive in them. Seed mixes were formulated using safflower seed in place of sunflower. Unfortunately, safflower has similar nutritive values when compared to sunflower, except it is a more bitter tasting seed, so most birds will consume fewer of them as opposed to sunflower seeds. Safflower is also more expensive. Let's finally put this rumor to rest: there is nothing addictive in sunflower seeds. There are probably no benefits to feeding a safflower-based diet, as opposed to a sunflower-based one, except birds may eat fewer of them. Both safflower and sunflower contain lots of fat, and not much else that is nutritional for birds. It is thought that the sunflower seeds with more white in the hulls are better nutritionally than the little, black seeds. Occasionally, feeding foods high in fat is beneficial, especially for the bird that needs to gain weight.One final note: feeding a diet high in fat may cause problems with calcium absorption. If a bird like my Poppy patient above is suffering from calcium problems, the diet must be evaluated to ensure that she is not consuming too many fat calories, which may interfere with her ability to properly absorb calcium.

I will end this by once again stating that in no way do I feel I am right and anyone else is wrong. As has been stated by many - we do the best to keep our birds healthy by feeding what we believe is a proper diet. Since I am unable to provide flower blossoms to my fids year-round, I choose to provide bee pollen which is a whole food - not a supplement or man-made vitamin - to all my fids, along with a pelleted diet and a myriad of fresh foods.

[The Outlaw]

Kathie:

You bet I know who Carolyn is. I've used her dietary advice for almost a decade and that's exactly why I still feed fresh. She is the one who taught me how. And, I was the one who pleaded with her to come to BB and become our Eclectus expert, which she still is. She did her research and posted her findings. She was producing healthy ekkies when few other breeders had been. She was forced to find a better way or lose her chicks.

As for the use of the Avian Trio, please do ask your customers to do before and after photos. That would be a wonderful testament. Heck, if I can see real results, I'd happily pony up. Better still, have them collect the feathers too. Seeing beautiful tails and wings would make any skeptic take a second look. And, if you can, how about asking them what diets they are feeding and if the only changes have been the addition of the supplements. That of course would make their case for adding them rock solid.

I've stated it before, I'm here to learn. I want to be as informed as I can possibly get. After all, 9 birds depend on me to do it right. I don't want to let any of them down. I dragged them here and its up to me to take excellent care of them.

[CALVINS MOM]

Originally Posted by The Outlaw

Kathie:

You bet I know who Carolyn is.

As for the use of the Avian Trio, please do ask your customers to do before and after photos. That would be a wonderful testament. Heck, if I can see real results, I'd happily pony up. Better still, have them collect the feathers too. Seeing beautiful tails and wings would make any skeptic take a second look. And, if you can, how about asking them what diets they are feeding and if the only changes have been the addition of the supplements. That of course would make their case for adding them rock solid.

I've stated it before, I'm here to learn. I want to be as informed as I can possibly get. After all, 9 birds depend on me to do it right. I don't want to let any of them down. I dragged them here and its up to me to take excellent care of them.

You bet! It's a deal. And, yes, Carolyn is aces in my book. I didn't realize she was here as an expert.

Regarding the diet, that's how we usually get onto the topic of Avian Trio. You would vomit to hear some of the diets people tell you about - including BEER! So, we do explain diet, give out tons of information, and hopefully set them in the right direction. I am sure that the results are from the diet change and the bee pollen, but I will be sure to ask in the future and will report back.

I believe Kristine (the employee) has since taken down the tail feathers, but I will ask her to bring in one from her macaw's next molt, along with an old one (if she still has one), and I will send it to you.

[CamelotCrazee]

When I go to my dads tomorrow I'll load my before and after avian Trio pics and then I can at least show what a good diet and the addition of Avian Trio has done for my bird and her feathers. I beleive its a great supplement whether it is found in a birds diet naturally or not its worked for her beautifully. Besides not much that we feed our birds today is actually found in nature at least not where most parrots reside.

I dont want to seem like I'm playing favorites but I have been guided by some very brilliant people who know far more than I do, at this point in my life and with their knowledge they have been teaching me along the way. Kathie has been doing this for years and is very devoted to what she does,before I even knew about bird board if I ever had a question or concern about one of my birds or someone elses I would ask her and if she was not sure of the answer she would guide me in the direction of someone that does.

And I am just hoping as a new member that I will be able to get that same help without critisisim of my thoughts or choices. Not everyone does everything alike and their is no right or wrong answers what works for some doesnt work for others. But the Avian trio does work for my Fids.

[CALVINS MOM]

Originally Posted by CamelotCrazee

When I go to my dads tomorrow I'll load my before and after avian Trio pics and then I can at least show what a good diet and the addition of Avian Trio has done for my bird and her feathers.

Thanks, CamelotCrazee! Would love to see those pictures myself. Thanks for the confidence, too.