Can someone explain please?

[Doyle'sMommy]

Originally Posted by Ty&Lucy

I know that this topic has been discussed here many times. I have adopted both of my parrots. I do not condemn the breeders, nor the rescues. This is just an example ... I just went to www.petfinder.com and searched birds. This was the list I got: Breed/Pets in Breed: African Grey 19; Amazon 77; Budgie/Budgerigar 61; Caique 1; Canary 12; Chicken 97; Cockatiel 207; Cockatoo 94; Conure 88; Dove 45; Duck 74; Eclectus 11; Emu 1; Finch 12; Goose 26; Guinea fowl 3; Lory/Lorikeet 6; Lovebird 34; Macaw 34; Parakeet (Other) 89; Parrot (Other) 63; Parrotlet 4; Pheasant 5; Pigeon 7; Pionus 2; Poicephalus/Senegal 14; Quaker Parakeet 31; Ringneck/Psittacula 19; Rosella 2; Softbill (Other) 1;
Total: 30 breeds -- The number following the name is the number available for adoption. Sobering when you see just the number that one site lists. Just my thoughts! Pam

I just found a beautiful African Grey on there! I think I might have to call and learn more about him. Thanks for the website!

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by kikibird

I also read the thread previously, there were a lot of un called for nasty posts( I have been lurking).

I will first start by commenting on the parrot situation in Ireland. Parrots in Ireland and especially breeders are a rare thing and like the poster of the other thread stated a lot of birds are imported. In the case of the ladies friend wanting to breed, go for it. There very few, if any at all, parrot rescues in Ireland so the need is not there to adopt. Provided this lady has the expertise, which was claimed she does, then I see no reason why a local person with knowledge that she can pass on with her hand reared parrots can not breed. As was stated it is a lot easier and safer to have this lady breed compared to importing and having baby parrots fly hundreds of miles with the possibility of them maybe dying on the way and then becoming more stressed out by sitting in a pet shop and fondled over and then trying to adjust to a new home.

I also say that is this lady is retired and wants to pursue her passion now that she has the time and wants to make her life and those of other people a little happier with the help of a pet parrot then go for it.

I realise my statement hear may sound a little contradictory as I have just purchase my new Alexandrine from breeder in on the other side of the country and he had to be flown over to me. But I went with a breeder that I could trust and has been so very helpful and done the absolute utmost for me, I wont go to in depth.

I can understand the furstration of American parrot owners. There are a lot of breeders out there that ARE just in it for the money and to be honest I think that there is too many in America. America is also greatly placed for wild caught birds from South America to be illegaly brought in to the country and sold off, and there is a lot of that too.

IMO parrots in America are to easy to obtain, they are in every pet shop, there is a breeder in evey suburb. As has been stated people need to be educated. I believe that before you walk in to buy a parrot you should be asked a series of questions about the Husbandry of parrots and if you can not answer them then you go home, with out your parrot, and do resarch first, or at least something along these lines. And I think that this should be LAW, not only in America but all countries and for all soughts of animals. It is just to easy to impulse buy without a question being asked by the breeder or store or the seller of a wild caught parrot, because they just want the sale, and then this leads to the bird being placed up for adoption.

I had no idea that parrot adoptions even existed prior to purchasing my first parrot, had I have known this was an option I might have considered it. But the education was not there for me to take this option. Granted there are not as many rescues here in Aus as there is over there, but they are here.

Here in Australia however things are a great deal different. I feel that we are rather educated especially breeders because we have our own native parrot populations. We have very strict rules regarding importation and deportation, we are a very isolated country which means we do not have the diseases here that americans have and we are in the process of implementing even more stringent rules. I believe that this makes us as aviculturists in Australia more aware and educated because of the vulnerabilities that we could become exposed to.

I believe that breeders here are very different from that in America and I have no qualms about purchasing a parrot from a breeder. There are the select few that are only in for the big bucks, but majority that I have seen and spoken to have been very helpful and have gone out of there way to help and educate me. I would not purchase from a pet store as I believe that pet stores are wrong, majority any way.

Take the breeder that I have just purchase my Alexandrine from. He went out of his way and still is to try and give me information that will help me with the gaining of Artemis's trust, he educated me, although I already knew, about behaviours and bad foods, he constantly sent me photos of Artemis's progress and best of all he went completely out of his way to drive Artemis 7 hours to the main Adelaide airport because he did not want him to get more stressed out than he was by having to change planes and drove 7 hours back home again.

Every country is different. America is just a lot worse than majority because everything is so easy to obtain and no education is given prior. Not very many people know that parrot rescues are out there but they know that breeders and pet stores are so they will always turn to the breeder or pet store.
Not all breeders are bad, majority are good, however some breeders and majority pet stores need to change their attitude towards the sale of birds and other animals and think of what is right for the bird.

I mean breeders have been doing the right thing by the bird while it was being hatched and reared and also for its parents so why not think about the right thing when it comes to educating the new owner.

Like I said every country is different and we need to take this into account as we are not all from america.

Oh and quite a lot of people keep toos, weather it be white or black. But the way I see it when it comes to toos is you can see them in their most beautiful form here, flying free in the wild so why keep them.

If this makes no sense let me know. I have rambled on and it is quite late, I am very tired.

Cheers guys.

Excellent post Kikibird! I think American members have a better understanding of bird keeping in Australia now!

I also think the Americans are doing a good job of explaining the situation over there too, yes it is very different to us. I really wish these poor birds didn't have to be stuck in rescues. I agree that it is much too easy to purchase a parrot over there without knowing what you are getting into and the sellers are not educating the public. It breaks my heart to see unweaned babies being sold at bird fairs to anyone with the money too.

[Abby]

On the 'too comment, U2s, M2s and Goffins are a rarity in Oz. We have enough of our own native guys to choose from. I have a GSC2 who I took over from an elderly couple purely because having had them as a kid I knew what they were capable of. There were quite a few emails back and forth before they decided that I could look after their darling properly. Many people I speak to grew up with a "cocky" in the backyard that used to swear and carry on and torment the neighbourhood kids. It's a bit of a cultural thing. The main prob we have with our 'toos at the moment (excluding the farmers thoughts) is that PBFD is quite bad amongst the wild population. If I was to get another 'too I would only get one that was aviary bred handraised. I'm also well aware that I would be heavily screened by the breeder. Cockatoo breeders here are well aware of the issues these birds have and will be very careful who they sell to generally.
I understand that there are problems in the US, but I'd really like people to understand that those problems aren't worldwide. This is an international board, so things are going to be very different from country to country.

[felisdomesticus]

Originally Posted by Abby

I understand that there are problems in the US, but I'd really like people to understand that those problems aren't worldwide. This is an international board, so things are going to be very different from country to country.

well America is the land of Instant Gratification and I WANT I WANT I WANT... we have greedy breeders who are just out for $$ and who could care less who buys their birds, puppies, kittens, etc. We have ignorant parents who purchase these animals for their irresponsible children just to shut them up. We have people who know full well about animal overpopulation and the horrors of breeding mills who STILL buy from pet stores because, well, they want the dog or bird or whatever NOW. We have unscrupulous store owners who will sell a large parrot to a clueless customer. Americans are out of control and, unfortunately, it is the animals who suffer for it. It makes me sick.

How many Christmas puppies, kittens, and birds do you think will be purchased this month? I'd estimate that 25% of them go to a shelter or rescue by the end of January ("they're just too much work") and another 25% by the end of the year (the infamous "allergies" excuse which means that they are bored with the pet and/or it is too much work). But Mommy and Daddy don't have the courage or the heart to say no to their spoiled little brat...

Someone was advertising "purebred teacup maltipoos" (HA HA HA HA HA) on telephone poles in my neighborhood. I ripped every single one of those signs down today. I also convinced a coworker and her husband NOT to breed their puppy mill Shiba Inus for extra cash yesterday. And Sunday I am both taking in a neglected cat and adopting out a kitten who was destined for euthanization at the shelter. I'm doing what I can but unfortunately it is like throwing pebbles at the incoming tide.

[BigBird]

Im in Australia and I breed a several different varieties of birds. Exotic Birds such as McCaws and Greys etc are very hard to come by here. I saw one of each of those for the first time ever in my 40 years only last May at a bird sale. Both birds were selling for $7000 which is way out of the league of many average australians. As much as I would love one, Im glad they are so expensive because it means the "I want I want I wants just cant go out and get one. Then realise man this bird is freakin huge, freakin noisy and freakin hard work, I dont want it anymore!"

Cockatoos are popular birds to keep as pets here, but they too are actually very hard to come by. Correct me if wrong but I have been told they dont breed in captivity??? Which would be one reason why there arent too many pet ones. Plus as another poster said they are so beautiful in the wild and everywhere, why cage one. (Sad saw 3 dead ones on the highway in a group the other day :o( looked like someone had taken a knife to a feather cushion!).

I recently bought an endangered bird from a breeder and I was surprised one that they basically sell them to anyone and two , not once did they ask for my licence number or mention that I need one ( I did already have a licence by the way). I have a feeling they werent licenced. I give people as much information I can before they even order a bird off me. The other week some people came to pick up a tiel and they turned up with a cage that I dont think Id even put a budgie in. The next day I went and bought them a tiel cage and she is now paying me back for that.

As far as selling birds Ive raised. Very hard. I want to keep them all. My little yellow goes to her new home today and Im so attached to her now, I would love to keep her. But she will make the new owners so happy and she will be the only bird in the family and get all of the attention and all of the neck scratches that she can possibly ever want. Plus the money I get for her goes straight back into the bird keeping business and buys another month worth of seed. But gawd Im not looking forward to her going. Some its easy to see go to a new home, but others get under your skin!!

Ive also just read the thread that was closed earlier and a bit cranky about it myself. I think you are wrongly condemning "bird breeding". Not all of us keep the birds in small cages on top of each other. All of my birds are in huge aviaries, are spoilt rotten and loved to death each and every one of them. If it didnt mean over crowding the aviaries I wouldnt sell any of them! I dont do it for a profit, the numbers I sell each season are quite small anyway, its more a hobby. I guess its just the difference between countries. In australia the preferred way seems to be to buy them from a breeder/back yard breeder. The birds are usually healthier, tamer, and the new owner is more educated. At pet shops here the young kids serving dont know very much at all about what they are selling, its just a job. Breeders here walk you around their aviaries, are available on email / phone for as many questions as you may have and gawd I still write to backyard breeders Ive bought from with questions, Ive even made friends with a couple of them and keep in touch regularly.

If there are breeders where you are stacking birds on top of each other then fair enough that is awful, but dont put all of us in that category.

[bustersbuddy]

I am reposting my response to the original post by Little Angel yesterday since it speaks directly to the question addressed here. As I point out in my comments below, emotion often rules this question and it is the greatest enemy of any sort of reasoned response and policy. My previous post is as follows:

"I'm going to present a different view here. I am sure that some of you are going to get very angry at me but try to hear what I am saying before you attack. The only thing I questioned about Little Angel's friend starting to breed birds was her level of experience and was she really prepared for what she was about to undertake. Little Angel says the lady has plenty of experience and knows what she is doing. Enough said for me.

I have to look at this question from a global and environmental perspective. Many of our birds are endangered species whose native habitat is under constant pressure. For example, all of the species of Amazon parrots are either on CITES Appendix II or Appendix I. All of them are "threatened" and many are "endangered" while a number of others are "uncertain". I suspect that most of the African species are equally endangered. Certainly, all of the Asian parrots are under tremendous pressure from habitat destruction. There are enormous numbers of birds collected in the wild every day and the only way to take the pressure off wild populations is to breed these birds in captivity. To my mind, we need as many captive breeding programs as we can muster. If we do not continue to work with and breed these birds in a captive setting then we will loose many of these species to extinction in the next 10 to 20 years. Captive breeding programs offer the best scenario currently available. Yes, we should be working every day to preserve the habitat. Yes, we should be supporting every adoption possible for unwanted and abused birds. But I do not believe that breeders are at fault for persuing their hobbies/livelihoods and trying to do their part to save endangered species. I do not believe that breeders deserve to be villified and told they are "bad people". Without breeders, many species would already be extinct. Without a captive program, Spinx macaws are certainly doomed. They maybe already, but at least there is a chance of sustaining the species for another generation or two. Maybe by then we will have wised up and quit cutting down the jungles.

If you really want to prevent abused and abandoned birds, then your first job is EDUCATION! Donate your time to a local humane society and offer to give classes in proper bird care. Write articles for your local newspapers about how to select a bird that is right for you. Many small town newspapers are always short of articles and will welcome something different. Take your bird to school and do a "show and tell" for a class. Share this board with your local pet store and ask if it can be advertised on their website. Work with your local breeder and find out if they are making an effort to place a certain number of offspring with zoological gardens, parks, etc. where the birds can be displayed and bred under more controlled conditions. Education is everything! Ignorance and misinformed purchases are the reason for the number of abandoned birds, not breeders.

These are difficult issues that we must deal with NOW! And we must deal with them in a common sense, factual manner. Our emotions must stay out of it and we have to make decisions based on what is best for the species in the long run, i.e. the next 200 or 300 years, not just out of a feeling of sorrow for those animals that are abused by uneducated owners. Believe me, I face this question every day with my orchids. Do we ban all collecting of plants or do we allow limited collecting of new species in order to bring them into cultivation and thereby possibly save the species from extinction? And don't say "well, that's different. They are JUST plants!", because no, they are not JUST plants any more than our beloved fids are JUST birds. In fact, when you look at the role that green plants play in the planet's overall ecosystem, a green plant might just be the most important organism on the Earth! And yet, orchid nurseries and nursery owners that specialize in orchid species are constantly condemned by a certain portion of the population for "exploiting" nature and cultivating the plants for "their own glory and egotistical satisfaction". Judging from some of the harsh comments directed at breeders herein, the same outlook exists in the bird world. More's the pity! But that's just my opinion."

Many of you here in the U.S. seem to think that we are the worst offenders. Perhaps when it comes to captive bred birds, that MIGHT be the case but at least the U.S. no longer allows the importation of wild caught birds and hasn't since the Newcastle's Disease hysteria of the early to mid '70's. The U.S. situation HAS improved with regard to imported birds but it has NOT improved in the U.K. Here is a post that Graehstone made in the "African Grey" segment of this board late last week entitled "African Grey seeing red" :

"African Grey seeing red

Britain's favourite talking parrot is being put at risk by the trade in wild birds.

The African Grey parrot, one of the most popular avian pets in the world, is declining in most of the 23 countries in which it is found and may soon be added to the official 'red list' of threatened birds.

A meeting of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) opens tomorrow (July 7) at which the trade in the African grey will be reviewed.

It will be the third time the fall in the birds' numbers have forced trading quotas to be reassessed. The RSPB says evidence of declines shows that existing trade controls are too weak.
Europe is responsible for 93% of the trade in CITES-listed birds and the charity wants the UK and other EU countries to ban bird imports unless there is compelling proof that wild bird numbers are being sustained.

Duncan McNiven, Senior Investigations Officer at the RSPB said: 'The pet trade has been exploiting wild birds for decades yet the trade goes on with too little thought for its sustainability.

The plight of the African Grey reflects the state of the bird trade as a whole and as the world's major importer of wild birds, the EU should now be banning imports of all wild birds.'

The CITES meeting comes as market research commissioned by the RSPB reveals that more than 90% of people in the UK and Germany disapprove of the wild bird trade.

A succession of questions has also been tabled in Parliament asking the government to support an end to wild bird imports into the EU.

The EU suspended the trade last year after imported wild birds died of the lethal H5N1 strain of bird flu in quarantine in Essex. Seizures of smuggled birds have not increased since and the RSPB estimates that the ban has saved more than one million wild birds from life in cages.

The African Grey is one of at least 3,000 bird species bought and sold to be kept as pets. It is sought-after for its skill as a mimic and attractive plumage.

CITES records show that almost 360,000 African Grey parrots were legally traded between 1994 and 2003. But these figures do not include smuggled birds and ignore the many thousands that die before they reach pet shops. For some species, this is as many as 60%.

Duncan McNiven said: 'There is now no sense in allowing the bird trade to continue. It is bad for wild birds, it is unpopular with people and it has already brought bird flu to Britain.

'Local people rarely benefit when birds are exported from their countries with profits going to middle men and importers instead.

'A permanent ban would not stop pet owners keeping these birds. Parrots bred in captivity make much better pets and are better suited to life in a cage than birds caught in the wild.'

'The UK government and the EU as a whole is playing a major role in the decline of these magnificent birds and should do all it can to initiate a permanent ban.'

Source: RSPB Public Relations department
6 July 2006
http://www.rspb.org.uk/policy/wildbi...fricangrey.asp"

And here is my response to it (by the way, Graehstone is an orchid grower also and his wife works for the finest orchid nursery in the U.S.):

"Well, Graehstone, we both know what a huge problem this is, not only for our birds, but for plants, fish, etc. The only real solution is establishing lots of captive breeding stock in both the countries that import and in the countries of origin so that pressure is taken off the remaining wild populations. The local people must be able to equal or exceed their income made from
wild-caught birds with the income from captive bred populations. Of course, parrots are no easier to breed than orchids are to grow from seed or mericlone and there in lies the rub. There are no simple answers to this and a broad-based ban will only lead to a black market where birds are further mistreated and abused in the smuggling attempts. More birds will die and further pressure will be forced on to the remaining populations. It is a vicious cycle that is doomed to repeat itself absent well funded, well trained captive breeding programs. But no one wants to do that either!"

Clearly the trade in birds is not about to end. In the final analysis, what would you rather have as a pet, a captive-bred, hand-raised bird that will respond to you and share your life or a wild-caught bird that will fear you and resent you for the rest of its days? Which would you rather support, an in-country captive breeding program where the citizens of that country can take pride in breeding and raising the beautiful animals and plants that call their country home and sharing them with the world or an impoverished citizenry that must participate in an internationally illegal act and trade in order to support their family?

[Thowraa]

I have only skimmed through some of the latest posts but here in the UK (Wales at least) it is really hard to get hold of any parrot bigger than a ringneck. And now my local PAH store has stopped selling birds alltogether I know of only one shop (owned by the breeder I am getting my CAG from) in the whole of cardiff that sells parrots. Now maybe there are some that I dont know of, but in the capitol city of wales I know of only one store that breeds and sells hand reared parrots.

I'm not saying there aren't other breeders but you have to look REALLY REALLY hard, to even find somewhere to buy a parrot from over here, which means usualp people have done a lot of research in order to find a breeder. And then as the breeder will only have a hand ful of birds and usualy quite a lot of interest they can choose who the birds go to.

I know the breeder near me would turn away anyone she thought would not do they best they could for one of her babies. She said herself, she's in no hurry to sell her birds.

There seem to be quite a lot less (larger at least) parrots here in the UK in general, but again this is just my oppinion from my experiences in my area.

[Abby]

Captive cockatoos will breed but it's not easy. You need to have a well bonded pair (not always easy), it takes quite a few years for them to be old enough to physically reproduce then there's the normal fertility incubation issues. They are a challenge, one that I'm not prepared to take on. An aviary bred handraised GSC2 can go for $600+ AUD. You don't see them advertised very often because most breeders will have a waiting list. Makes the buyer think twice if they may need to wait 12 months for a baby to be available.

[Thowraa]

Oh and I cant remember who said about Hyacinths being hard to get. Over hear a single one is £8000 or a pair I think was £32000. OMG! A single one costs more than a descent new car! and a pair, well thats a good quater of a house here. Never going to be able to afford one of those beauties.

[Monica]

In some parts of the world, we DO need more breeders... so that in this way, it'll help stop the flow of wild caught parrots... but in others, like here in America, we need far fewer breeders.

As for cockatoos in Australia, in some places, you can get some toos for as little as $25-$50 parent raised... $75 and up for handfed. (NOTE: thinking about galahs here) Therefore, it's very easy for kids to buy larger birds, or for parents to buy them birds... but in most cases it seems as if these birds have knowledgeable parents. I've also wondered if there is a price difference in foods, cages, and wires, for birds in different countries, which I'm sure there is.