Nature vs Nurture raising?

I am curious about a couple things... I was at my bird club meeting and some people were talking about hand feeding babys and how people kinda feel about the two sides of the coin of nurture vs nature came down to a convience issue.

As people were talking it seemed to come down to a couple things...

Nurture - babys are removed from there parents at a young stage and fed and grow ever increasingly dependent on there care taker for food, warmth, shelter and etc..

Nature was as we all know, parent looks after their young and babys are alitle suspicious of around humans for awile since their eyes haven't been open long enough to focus and make out shapes and strange movements that the chicks need to be handled so much carefully, gently, and etc.

It seemed from my viewing of the topic that birds that were left with their parents for those couple extra days also could still be great pets like we hope and fully nurtured birds, but do have a little more natural parrot instinct and know what is acceptable in terms of how it wants to be treated. If the birds were treated well they would come to a concious decision that you knowhat these people are 'OK' in my book and the birds are socialable on there own terms rather than being helpless of sorts to their keepers will.

The conversation then took another jump about how the babys would turn out as pets... Nurtured babys would in term be good pets as they have completely dependent on people and have our trust... Natured birds if you will were debated as being independent at heart, savvy, quick and know they are parrots. Someone made reference to it kinda being like the birds of the 70-80's that were wild birds... Alot knew they were birds, wild in nature but alot became good pets in time overcoming their fear of humans,and became trusting. It also seemed that the birds that were left alittle longer with their parents were also less likely to accept mistreatment, neglect, poor handling from their keepers. In the end of the debate amonst a couple people at our club meeting it came down to 2 positions or views...

A couple people thought Nurture was that of being convienent, designing the bird to be dependent, docile, pliant and submissive.

Nature - or waiting a couple more days before pulling them late from the feeding stage was slowly bringing them around humans and keeping there identities as birds, their independence, and confidence if you will.

Curious what you guys think?

[bb100]

Originally Posted by beakers

A couple people thought Nurture was that of being convienent, designing the bird to be dependent, docile, pliant and submissive.

This statement has me perplexed. Anyone who has a mature parrot wouldn't classify them as designed to be the above even if it was handfed. Maybe as a baby but Mother Nature has her own ideas at maturity.

I like coparenting.. Max the CAG stayed with his wild caught parents for 6 or 7wks. His breeder watched the parents by video & only took him out for handling for short periods of time.

It's hard to say what is best but I like the idea that Max had time with his parents for longer than most parrots. I often think it's also what happens after the parrot leaves the breeder that influences behavior as well.

Again, I was paraphrasing what the conversation was... designing the bird would I guess be better explained as domesticating it? In a round about way?

[GreetingCardReligion]

I thought I was back in Psych 101 for a minute, hehe.

I've never been involved in breeding or making these types of decisions but I would think a bigger difference would be in birds left more than a few days with their parents.

If youre going to handraise baby birds, you still have to build their trust with consistancy, love, regardless of when you pull them.

I wouldn't think that a few days would make such a difference but I do know that some breeders leave their babies with reliable parents for up to around 3 weeks.

I don't think most people consider handrearing at any stage so that the birds are submissive. Handrearing is important because it builds and establishes trust between the bird and people. The bird learns that people can be depended on to feed it and care for it and treat it kindly. It has nothing to fear of people because people have given it no reason to be afraid.

Baby birds are going to be dependent because they are babies - just like any other species. If not people then it would be dependant on it's parents but the dependency is still there and when you take the baby and handfeed it a few days later, it will still be dependant on the people who take it.

Maybe it's just me but I've never met a bird who was entirely docile and placid, handfed or not

I have no issue with either practise but I do think that birds who will become pets should be handfed and handraised and not entirely parent raised so that the baby can benefit from the early trust and socialization of people and make its transition into a home easier on the bird and the person who takes him home.

I am unaware of the psychological benefits to leaving the bird with it's parents (if the parents are diligent and reliable) for a few days/weeks but I do believe that, at some point, the baby bird who will someday become someones companion, should be pulled and handraised.

Yea, I don't think the topic is one to get all huff and puff over... really comes down to preferences. I guess a good analogy would be.. Moving out on your own early versus staying home longer... Both have advantages, but in the end which do you think made your bird better all around? I don't know just trying to get people to chime in and debate it without getting all hot and heavy.

[bustersbuddy]

I must have worked with very forward thinking breeders in my little home town in New Mexico. In the early 70's, these breeders always left the young with the parents for the first 2-4 weeks unless the parents refused to feed the young or abandoned the nest for some reason. All three women thought that the young were stronger, more resistant to diseases, more intelligent and more alert later in life if they spent as much time as possible with mom and dad before being taken off the nest for hand rearing and training in the final weeks before fledging. Once the babies were removed from the parents, they quickly formed a bond with their new human "moms" but they were a bit more independent and bold than those babies that were taken within a couple of days of hatch.

I have not worked with very small birds since that time, nor have I been actively involved with breeding but I think those observations would probably still hold true today.

[Monica]

Bustersbuddy, I'll second that! IMO, it's a good idea to leave the chicks with the parents for at least 2 weeks, if not more... thus, the chicks can get the beneficial 'crop milk' from the parents that help build up their immune system and give them the necessary extras needed for growing...

As I am saying this, my very first cockatiel, Casey, was probably incubator hatched and handraised from day one of hatching by humans. She's now about 5 1/2 years old, and is a very sweet cockatiel. Her best buddy is a cherry headed conure, but all other birds she is a bit cautious/wary of. She doesn't seem to mind hanging out with them, if she so chooses, but generally speaking, she has her "mate" and doesn't want other birds getting too close to her... however, she will just as easily come to me for scritches on the head, and always remains sweet as ever with me. Yeah, she can be a brat at times, but she's a nice little bird...

Have two other cockatiels, that I assume are probably handraised, but not handfed... thus, they are accepting of humans, and the brother enjoys headscritches but he can also become very crabby at times. The sister on the other hand is a bit more hands off, although doesn't mind sitting on a humans shoulder... Their parents however, are very wild, more than likely parent raised, and the father cannot easily be handled... the mother, when out of the cage, is a little easier to handle, since she cannot fly. Otherwise though, she becomes a mess when trying to handle her. Kirby, the son, tends to be very pushy with his family, except for his dad. Sunshine, the daughter, tends to be more reserved and hates her brother (most of the times, but tends to get along okay). Both parents more reserved.

Second cockatiel, which was later rehomed... he was most likely parent raised, and was not interested in human companionship. I did clip him, but he preferred hanging out with other cockatiels. He was a nasty little guy, always biting, couldn't really tame him.... he's happy now where he's at.

Then there's Tomi Girl.... probably parent raised, but little is known about her history... in her previous home (where she was found in their yard), she seemed hands off, not interested in humans... when she came here, she was weak and I probably weighed her a gazillion times each day until she came to a steady 80 grams in weight (from 58 grams). When she was stuck with the cockatiel family, she was very reserved and didn't wander much from her spot except for food and drink. She'd defend it from the tiel family... since being in her own cage, no other birds, she now enjoys coming out of the cage at least 1-3 times a day, to exercise her wings (and boy can she fly!), and she gets ansy when she wants out. She doesn't mind sitting on people, but she seems to enjoy their company... She just doesn't seem to like being around other birds though.

So judge it as you will... I've had more experience with parent raised tiels now, than handraised, and I doubt I've had any experience with tiels that were taken from parents at 2 weeks and on, but as you can see, or read, how they are raised can make a difference in how they are as adults... of course a bird can be turned around, if the human wants to tame them... but this is my experiences.

[bb100]

Beakers

Now the reason I was perplexed by the nurture statement you paraphrased from your Birdclub:

My Father has a Y/N male who was incubated & handfed almost 30yrs ago. For half the year (hormonal) I don't see domesticated in his eyes at all. The other half of the year he's fine. So, I'm coming from the fact our Y/N Amazon Male kinda blew all the reasons (those on the nurture side) stated right out of the water at maturity.

Judging from the responses you already have most of us if not all would agree Nature or at least Co-parenting would be best.

[Cindy215]

I'm not sure I followed that whole discussion but i'ts a big debate among people. It's really two issues the birds learning things and imprinting to people.

There are definite differences in babies (Psittacines) who are pulled young no longer spending time with their older families. They are not genetically hardwired to know how to do things alone they are flock/prey animals. So then if you pull them young (removed from the flock) they aren't really being taught things by birds. Like bathing, grooming, food, sense of security, sleeping, even flying. Modeling their own kind. From parents, siblings etc.

Dysfunctions in those areas are now seen as routine but if the birds were with their own kind longer we wouldnt see as much of it. Some Greys and Macaws are with their wild families even up to a year and occasionally fed by them that long, it's said as a nurture.

Imprinting - The genesis of pulling babies a couple decades ago was to imprint them asap on the human. Meaning they see the human face "first" and don't understand they are different. The theory was they would always try to act like a human and fit in and not crave birds. Everyone either forgot or didnt know the downside to this. Not learning things and not liking to be alone all the time. (in the case of a single pet).

As time passed we realized that the theory was convoluted. Since they have been birds for millions of years, are and will always be an undomesticated animal (not meaning "tame) UNTIL the 1000th generation in captivity.

Because you can end up with a bird who is genetically hardwired to be with other birds 24/7 (some more than other like Toos versus Amazons who aren't as "flocky")....and who really doesnt know exactly how to be a bird (living alone) and certainly cant be a human either.

That's also why some people still incubate eggs to imprint them on the human and of course to free up the parents to breed.

So now IMO, people are trying to strike a balance. Like bb100 said. I'm not a breeder and I'm sure it's challenging now to make these decisions.

[Irish]

Ceilidh was parent raised 'til he was 5 or 6 weeks old. He was hand shy for a week or two, but he is an EXCELLENT companion. I think it's fairly normal, nowadays, for the average macaw, at least, to spend some time with its parents before being taken from the nest (the exception may be hyacinths, who are prone to having trouble hatching and rearing, and often seem to need help from humans, from several articles that I've read). Some people seem to interact with the baby prior to that time, and some don't. Ceilidh's breeders didn't. I have no complaints whatsoever with his demeanor (typical Scarlet), health or general personality.

I don't know when my other birds were pulled from their parents.