A PetCo to be proud of?

[flyingfluff]

I wish pet stores would stop selling live animals! For the sake of the animals and people! Especially the little privately owned pet stores. They don't have all the regulations or under all the scrutiny the large chains are under. Therefore, they can get away with having filthy cages and dirty food bowls.

[Courtzrocks]

My mum used to work for pet wise which was a pet supplies store. They had a list of breeders names they used to give out to people asking about animals. The only animals they sold were fish and the fish guys were major fish freaks! knew everything there was to fish it was crazy. And the setups were really quite big for them. I have to say the Pet city near my work is pretty good. They have a bird room away from the supplies, the people that work there have to own birds and some of them breed and hand raise them for the shop. The manager of the bird section is some avian zoologist or something and owns an Amazon (in australia this one was worth $6000) and they bring their birds in. They have a play stand they rotate the birds on during the day so they have some out of cage time. They also have a parrot playschool where they teach parrot owners the health, diet, training and socialising. Plus he is a the living end fan like me which makes it even more likeable haha. But really that is the best petshop selling birds i have seen.

[PowerBBS]

Why do people feel the need to trash a positive note with a negative one? Sorry, I just had to ask. Honestly... there are good ones and bad ones in what ever option you try to suggest. Don't crusify the entire industry based on a few "unmentionables". I hate to use cliche's but "One bad apple does NOT spoil the bunch."

You hate retail/chain stores... great... We've heard you tell us a few times about it in other threads... But why make it your personal mission in life "put every darn one out of business?" Do you honestly think that there are not just as many bad stories about the method you think is better? That's turning a blind eye on the truth in my humble opinion. Trust me... what ever option you think "is the best"... yes we all can go find "trash" on. In the end... they all equal out.

Sooo... if you truely feel your local pet store is doing something "bad". Then take action locally... Don't presume that every store is a bad seed and deserves to be "shut down". That's just an un-informed point of view. I agree with one viewpoint I've read so far... corporations are at least under federal and local guidelines where as breeders and small pet stores are not.

Our local PetCo does an awesome job at socialization and training their animals (dogs, cats, birds, rats, ferrets, guinea pigs, etc) to be great pets and family members. They provide interaction daily, clean cages and living areas. Fresh food and outside their cage exercise. They train the owners with required "education" courses prior to adopting any animal. They also provide a courtesy vet checkup with ANY ANIMAL THEY OFFER! This is corporate policy... not just local store policy, contact your local PetCo and verify it if you like. Now, because you may know of a store that doesn't follow those policies you choose to cursify the entire corporate industry.... I've encountered "some" breeders personally that do little more than feed their chicks and sell them. But do I crusify the entire industry because of it????? No... I'm a bit more evolved than that.

There's my small rant on that... If I say anthing more about people make pre-emptive judgements it will ensue a board riot I'm sure. And that's just not what I wanted when I started this thread. I wanted to note something positive (as all we seem to hear is bad news - as good news doesn't sell papers, or make you tune to the local evening news). However, someone out there just felt it necessary to attack it.

What a synical world we live in today isn't it?

[greencinacheeks]

i agree...not every petstore is bad. there is a small petstore where i live which is very nice. i know the owner and he and his 2 staff clean all the cages and do everything daily. socialize and train the animals/birds etc... he even trains every baby bird he has to step up and step down.


just thought i would jump in with that and end with that.

~Nate

[4HAND]

Wow! Couldn't agree more PowerBBS! Sometimes we forget not everyone has access to the internet[I didn't untill a year and a half ago].I looked in the classified adds for a cockatiel for months before finding one at Petco that was extremely well socialized and healthy.I don't ever want to see the day when the only way to get a bird is to have it shipped sight unseen from a far away breeder to an airport near me.Breeders are not abundant in many areas of the US.I for one am glad to be able to go to a well lit store with large clean cages to chose a bird that has been quarantined and is eating pellets and already steps up when asked.Petco gets more of my paycheck than any other store[excluding gas and groceries!].
Tena

[DiorPorFavor]

Just curious if I'm one of the people to whom you're referring. I don't want to defend my feelings and expand if it's uncalled for.

[Courtzrocks]

Yeah, I don't think i said anything to bad in my post, i was refering to a good petshop, there is also anotherone with really socialised birds across the road from my work, the owner has a sun conure and brings him in and everytime you buy something there for a bird they ask "when was the last time you wormed your bird?" and stuff like that. There are good ones but then again there are bad ones and it is always the bad ones that ruin it for the good ones. I should know, i got put through that being a teenager, no one trusted you and thought you were just some shoplifting teen on drugs who is sleeping around and killing animals...WE ARE NOT ALL LIKE THAT!!!!!! Now I am 20 so yay out of that stereo type now.

[Abyssinian1]

Originally Posted by PowerBBS

Why do people feel the need to trash a positive note with a negative one? Sorry, I just had to ask. Honestly... there are good ones and bad ones in what ever option you try to suggest. Don't crusify the entire industry based on a few "unmentionables". I hate to use cliche's but "One bad apple does NOT spoil the bunch."

I am very sorry if my post offended anyone on the board. I am very grateful that many of you have local Petco's and Petsmarts that have enthusiastic and knowledgeable employees that put the needs of the birds and animals first, before the monetary value of a sale. It's heartening to see, since much of the press on large chain stores tends to be negative, or after something goes terribly wrong, such as the outbreak of PDD among some of the birds at one of the chains. I wish, mostly for the sake of the animals who don't have a choice as to what kind of home they go to and what kind of treatment they receive, that all pet stores, large and small, could be as contientious as the examples you've shared with the board.

You hate retail/chain stores... great... We've heard you tell us a few times about it in other threads... But why make it your personal mission in life "put every darn one out of business?"

Actually, I don't hate retail chains, persay. There are many things that I do like about Petco and Petsmart, particularly where it comes to their policies on cat and dog adoption and working with local shelters to place dogs and cats, rather than selling puppies and kittens and contributing to the pet overpopulation problem. That was a policy that I don't think anyone who loves animals has a problem with. I also don't really have issues with their prices, although their business model does lend itself to the same kind of abuses that have plagued companies like Walmart (i.e., low wages, questionable products and foodstuffs from China, etc. as well as hurting smaller retailers due to being able to buy large quantities in bulk and forcing prices down). I like being able to go in and find lower priced toys for my very destructive little mini-macaws. I also know that I need to inspect each and every one before I give it to them, disinfected and researched before I buy it. While it is tempting to say that Petsmart and Petco should bear the responsibility for acting as distributors for potentially hazardous toys, it is ultimately the pet owner who needs to decide if a toy is appropriate and safe for their pets. It's probably more important for those of us with birds, as there is no real government standard regarding bird toys, as there is for toys for dogs and cats. If I am wrong about this, please let me know and tell me where you found the documentation - I'm actually interested in this.

Sooo... if you truely feel your local pet store is doing something "bad". Then take action locally... Don't presume that every store is a bad seed and deserves to be "shut down". That's just an un-informed point of view. I agree with one viewpoint I've read so far... corporations are at least under federal and local guidelines where as breeders and small pet stores are not.

Agreed. What we have across the United States (not sure about the regulations in other countries), is a hodgepodge of animal-related regulations, mandates at the state and federal level and other laws that harken back to the days when our relationship with most animals was of the livestock variety, not the companion animal variety. Most of the laws tend to err on the side of basic care rather than quality of life, and those laws governing outfits such as breeders and retailers are notoriously lax and often difficult to enforce. Law enforcement and animal control operations simply do not have the time, manpower and resources to shut down every puppy, kitten and bird mill in the U.S., nor do they have the authority to simply walk into a retailer, look at the conditions and immediately shut things down, unless the conditions are so overwhelmingly bad that the health department needs to be called in. Corporations and industries such as the pet industry, are often left to regulate themselves, which in my experience is just asking for trouble. Regulations are meant to act as both benchmarks and guidelines, providing a base standard of care for both the good of the animals, the consumer AND public health. I'm not quite sure why Petco and Petsmart have such careful standards when it comes to dogs and cats (adoption rather than seling young animals, grooming, vet care, obedience classes, etc.) and yet the corporations themselves seem to have a relative blind spot when it comes to similar standards for the other animals they sell. Why not adoption for these animals as well?

This is the downside of large chains and with large businesses in general. While the owners of small pet stores can be held responsible for negligent conditions, poor treatment of the animals and ignorance on the part of the staff, it is harder to get a large corporation to admit when one of their stores has a problem. Those problems may stem from the behavior of the entire staff, or they could be caused by one lousy manager who sets a bad tone for the rest of the staff. I am not sure if Petco or Petsmart runs its operations according to a franchise model - if they do, then the corporate offices can pull the franchise from the owner if they feel that that owner is not living up to the standards set by the head office.

From a corporate standpoint, (and this is from the textbook folks), "the main purpose of management is to increase shareholder value." Not take care of the animals being sold, not train the staff to a certain standard, not grill the potential buyers as to the kind of pet owners they will be or what the animals' ultimate fate will be if things don't work out. Granted, if a pet store chain does all of these things, in the long run they will reap the rewards, with good publicity, the respect of animal watchdog groups and higher sales due to repeat and loyal customers. All of these increase shareholder value, but not immediately, and that is the Achilles heel of this particular business model. Petco and Petsmart are publically traded companies and as such, they are focused on shareholder value and the price of their stock. This shortens their attention span from long-term growth to worrying whether or not they will make the target projection given to Wall Street by their financial departments on a quarterly basis. Stores need to perform and bring in more cash than they expend. Managers whose stores do not do this are often replaced with those who aren't truly concerned with the animals, but with the money that the sale of those animals produces. People often tuck their sense of ethics in the locker when their own jobs are on the line and managers are no exception - I've seen it too many times in my own workplace not to have earned a certain level of the cynicism that I hold regarding corporations and the way that the majority of folks at the high office level in them tend to think. And when that happens in a venue with live animals for sale, it is a slippery slope towards thinking of the animals in terms of dollar signs, rather than the little lives they really are.

For my part, I tend to look through the glass at the little sun conures and parakeets that are for sale at Petco and Petsmart, for hundreds of dollars, and wonder "What if it were me behind those cage bars, and I was waiting to find out what my fate would be?" I have a rather vivid imagination and I don't like what I conjure up behind my eyelids when I close them. I also see the results of the pet trade in birds and the passing of the buck regarding what happens to the animals every time I go down to the Gabriel Foundation. However, the solution to some of the negative reports regarding the big chain stores will not involve throwing red paint around and screaming and yelling. People tend to shut you out, write you off as a nutcase or simply have you dragged off the property by security. In all of these scenarios, the animals are still there and still for sale. Not the best way to get your point across. Even the behind-the-scenes video shot by PETA, as enlightening as it was as to the abusive practices behind closed doors at certain Petco and Petsmart stores, ended up pitting the animals rights folks against the corporations and created a hostile environment - not the most conducive environment in which to seek solutions that will satisfy both sides.

2nd half of post to follow

[Abyssinian1]

2nd half of reply;

The real way is to show these companies using the power of spreadsheets and indepth cost analysis, the benefits of adopting a business model that does not include animal sales. This needs to be expressed in dollar signs, not in picketing or by appealing to their better natures. In dealing with those who are focused on the bottom line, that approach doesn't work very well, because they are more afraid of Wall Street than they are of you. It will require hard data and a break-down of the costs involved in making that one $600 conure sale, rather than the thousands they would save monthly in time, energy, food, upkeep and so on by not doing so. Companies are often very bad at taking into account hidden and sunk costs when factoring in the price of doing business or of selling a particular product. It takes calm, rational statistics and facts to get one's point across to the right people sometimes.

If Petsmart and Petco were utterly resistant to foregoing selling animals, then they need to be made accountable for the corporate standards that you've said that they have currently in place. I am sure that ther are some stellar stores that follow those standards to a 'T'. I have no doubt that the people you describe in your inital post are all that and more and truly care about the creatures that they are caring for. However, there is a long list of reports from former employees that outline continued abuses and nonadherance to those standards. Like law enforcement, a corporation like Petsmart or Petco can only fix what it knows about. As long as their stores make their sales target and as long as profits remain up and the stock price performs, there are people who will let abuses slide under the rug. And neither Petsmart, nor Petco can afford to let that happen at any level.

Bad PR can be an effective weapon, utilized properly by a watchdog group or a concerned customer. The more bad publicity a company gets and the more credibility that bad PR has, the more uneasy members of the public may feel about spending their dollars there. Fewer sales and bad publicity hurt not only the bad stores, but also the good stores, and the reputation of the corporation as a whole suffers. Investors aren't really known for altruism, but they do like the companies where they have parked their money to at least have some ethical standards and no excitment caused by angry customers and activists. Especially when it comes to small defenseless animals. Makes for bad press. I mean, this is what corporations have legal teams for right? To look for the pitfalls before they happen and can mushroom into an exposé on 60 Minutes or a lawsuit the size of Idaho? To maybe take a look at things that the company could do differently regarding how the money investors have sunk into the company is deployed? To me the liabilities of selling animals, both ethical and financial, far outweigh the money Petco and Petsmart might make in the short term. It is a practice, if I were CEO, that I would end.

Again, if I have ruffled any feathers here, I did not mean to. I only wanted to point out that these two companies are not consistent in how they deal with their employees and their training, their standards and their animals. I am glad to hear that they are making some progress in these areas and will be ecstatic when every employee they have can show the same kind of compassion, enthusiasm and caregiving standards as the employee you wrote about. She should be rewarded with something more than just a pat on the back and a paycheck. However, until Petsmart, Petco and other large pet stores can achieve some real consistency in this regard to their stated and written policies, I will keep writing them, urging them to adopt a better and more ethically sound and financially prudent business model that involves zero animal sales.

[PowerBBS]

Thanks for the insight on all that. I don't think you're ruffling feathers. You're expressing your view point and opinions. Everyone has that right (at least they do in the United States and in most other countries as well).

However, I still think I'll stick to my philosophy that no matter what option you "think" is best. Evil exists in equal amounts across all adoption venues... Including: retail stores, breeders, adoption centers, small pet stores, large retail chains, santuaries and even some "rescues". In most cases NONE of them have the resources to take care of the animal to the standards you're appearing to suggest/require. Note I said in "most" cases... meaning there are exceptions to the rule.

As I've said... for every positive point to any of the "buying/adoption/re-homing" options, there are at least 10 negatives you can find - therefor balancing the scale of between choices. Seems to me that I'd be hypocritical to respect one method and then denounce another. I'm just not that way. So to avoid the hypocracy... I'll just treat them all with equal respect, with exception to only the specific stores locations/specific breeder/adoption agency/etc. that I know who are doing the job poorly. I refuse to prosecute the entire chain because of stories about a specific branch store has a bad reputation. As I've said before... "a few bad apples does not destroy the entire bunch".

I respect your efforts. It sounds like you may have done some research on it. However, have you also researched the cases of abuse, neglect, cruelty filed against breeders? Rescues? Adoption Agencies? Sanctuaries? Do they have any less complaints than the "corporate giants"? Google searches I've done show 1000's of hits against them all! As I've said... Evil exists in all venues. Good luck on your endeavors to bring down the "corporate monster". I'm just gonna reserve my judgement until I am "better" informed about my own local store/corporate branch/local breeder/local rescue/local adoption agency/local rescue. And no matter how bad any of those locally are... I'm still not going to become an nationwide/worldwide activist against all of the specific types I disagree with unless there is definative proof that ALL of them are bad.

Like you I'm not trying to ruffle feathers... just expressing an opinion. I'll leave it at that. Everyone has opinions, some based on facts, some based on conjecture, some based just on personal preference. It's great that we all are allowed them tho, no matter what circumstances we establish them under.

I think to keep this particular thread friendly tho... I may just lock this thread, as like I said.... someone always wants to attack things.