Shoulder Dominance in Nanday Conure-Advice Please

[CrazyforCockatiels]

Our Nanday Sunny is three months old today and I am afraid he's established shoulder dominance owing to my lax attitude where this is concerned.

He is still being handfed formula although he is almost fully weaned and has been eating a well-balanced diet of fruits, veggies, eggs, pellets, and seeds daily.

Some questions and concerns: When Sunny hears us coming into the house (even when the garage door goes up) or up in the morning, no matter how early, he squawks until we go get him. He's just about conditioned us to this even though we don't run to him when he squawks. We do attend to him eventually as we get the birds up when we get up and it's time for everyone's breakfast. Not sure if the squawking has to do with his formula feeding time or if it's a flock behavior or if it's something we should be concerned about. It doesn't bother us but I hope it's not a negative behavior.

Next, when I am near Sunny's cage, he wants out. If I open the cage, he immediately grabs onto my arm or my shirt and pulls himself up to my shoulder and sometimes on top of my head. Also, if he is on his perch and I am anywhere near it, he leans over and steps right onto my shoulder or grabs a hold of my shirt and pulls himself up. This doesn't bother me but is it a negative behavior?

Also, when I try to put Sunny back in his cage after he's ridden on my shoulder, he moves around to the other shoulder or down my back so I can't get him to step up. He also plants his feet firmly and hunkers down so he's impossible to lift. He doesn't want me to put him back but sometimes I have things to do that don't involve a Nanday conure on my shoulder.

Lastly, Sunny squawks in my ear at times. Usually, this is right before formula time but sometimes it seems as if he does it out of happiness...? Does this make sense? I cluck to him and shhhh him a bit and he seems to quiet down when I do this and scratch his ears but nonetheless, I wonder if this is a behavior I need to try and control (if possible) or should I let him squawk like this? The only issue for me is that his squawk is so loud, it almost nauseates me. I think it affects my inner ear- really!

Any help at all would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you,
Laura

[jriley]

My personal opinion is that you, as the person living with your bird, are the person who gets to define a behavior as negative or not. If a behavior doesn't bother you, it doesn't matter if somebody else would call it negative.

You have to decide what the general pattern of interaction between you and Sunny will be throughout his life. Calling for you to get your attention is normal and it sounds like you are letting him know that you will get to him eventually so that he doesn't feel abandoned but you are also not reinforcing a screaming behavior by going to him immediately. If you are close enough for him to hear, it can be reassuring to him if you talk to him as you go about your tasks.

As for shoulder dominance, the biggest problem with shoulders is that they can start seeing the shoulder as their territory and start defending it from others (like a spouse) and there is a danger of bites to the face if they feel threatened. It doesn't sound like that is happening with Sunny. It sounds more like he's just not wanting to be put away, which is perfectly normal. As far as I know, there isn't any way to cure that LOL, other than maybe to put a favorite food or treat in his cage right before you put him away so that he gets a reward for going back to his cage.

Molly, our baby umbrella cockatoo, desperately wants to be a shoulder bird. However, given her beak size, I just don't want her to have that kind of face access. We do let her cuddle on our chests, but if she tries to head to a shoulder we pick her up and put her in our laps and just patiently repeat 'til she gives up. If we are standing and she tries to scurry up an arm to a shoulder, we just "ladder" her until she gives up. It's very tempting to let her on a shoulder because then we could more easily do tasks around the house with her riding along. Instead, I got her a rolling playstand. During the day, I put her in different places in the house that I have to do things in and she can watch and interact. Being a cockatoo, she'd much rather be attached to me, but for the most part she is adapting well to this training.

A nanday can still do some pretty painful biting to the face and ears and I know our sun conure and our quaker both have ringing screeches that I sure don't want in my ears! It's entirely up to you if you are willing to risk those negative aspects and allow him on your shoulder. It does give you more ability to spend time with him without having to sit down and it gives him lots of stimulation as he gets to be involved with your daily activities. Our quaker won't leave her cage, but the sun conure, Nicky, would definitely like to be a shoulder bird. She has scratchy claws and can be nippy, so we don't allow it. We let her run around on the dining room table, put her on Molly's playstand, or ride her around on a hand or arm. She still gets to participate, but it's on our terms.

You might want to think about getting him into a routine of sorts. Maybe there's certain times of time when it's more convenient to have him on a shoulder. If you only allow shoulder time at those times, he will quickly learn when he can be on a shoulder and when he can't. When you don't want him on you, you have to be firm about it and not just let him scramble up your body whenever he wants to. I think the key to success is that you are the "top dog" and get to decide who does what and when. He will learn to respect you and will feel confident that you will give him the attention he needs.

Julie

[CrazyforCockatiels]

Julie~ I am so glad you responded to my post; I was hoping you would as I've read your stance on shoulders and you are most informative. Thank you!

I really like the idea of putting a favorite treat in Sunny's cage prior to putting him back in and I also share your concern over the chance that Sunny may someday view my shoulder as his territory and/or defend with a bite or bite out of feeling threatened. Even though you said it doesn't sound that way with Sunny, I imagine these areas of concern could arise and be problems later on as Sunny matures.

I also like your "laddering" until Molly gives up the idea of riding on a shoulder and the rolling playstand is certainly a great idea.

I guess I need to reinforce "my terms" rather than let Sunny "rule the roost" (pun intended!) and I am aware that pet birds are essentially wild animals that can be tamed; however, they still have those natural instincts and these may override any affection they feel toward us if they feel threatened or frightened.

I've also realized that birds are really like children and your point about Sunny respecting me and feeling confident that I will give him the attention he needs is so similar to children's need to have set limits as this gives them a sense of security and confidence.

Julie, thank you again for your tremendously insightful post to my questions and I do appreciate the time you've taken to respond to me.
I'll let you know how it's going.

Best,
Laura

[ROYJOY]

i agree with julie, and it takes alot of patients. my sun is 15 months old and will screem until i get him. i let him screem his head of before i get him, but he wont get the hint. i try to always go get him out when he's not screeming, so he will get the idea that screeming is not nesisary. hes not a constant screemer, but a couple times a week he will go on til i get him out. i agree that a treat is a sure fire way to get them back in when they dont want to. tiki is a shoulder bird, but doesnt bite.

[CrazyforCockatiels]

Thanks for your input, ROYJOY. You all are so helpful. I feel so supported by Bird Board people! :)

[Bonesy]

Have you thought of doing the same with him going back to the cage as dog trainers do with dogs coming to a lead?

Get them to come back, clip the lead, walk for a minute, let them off again.

Do the same thing with your bird and on/off shoulders and getting back in the cage.

YOU need to tell him when he can get on your shoulder, otherwise it will spiral into when HE thinks HE can get up there.

So pick him up, put him up there for five minutes, put him down, walk accross the room, fiddle with something then come back over, pick him up and put him back on your shoulder.

Repeat this until he finally realises being put down again dosent mean he wont see you again for a while, because being sociable animals, this will be a negative things for them, so he needs that sort of training. So he knows, OK, you're setting him down for a few minutes, but you'll be back to put him up there again shortly.

Also try this with clicker training. I use Clickers with ALL my birds and my clients birds, and it works wonders! and very quickly too, as they learn quicker from the positive reinforcement of the behaviours.

Hope this helps :)
Sophie.

[CrazyforCockatiels]

Thank you, Sophie. I will definitely try your suggestion. The only thing is, when I have Sunny on my shoulder and I walk anywhere near his cage or his perch and attempt to remove him, he plants his feet down so that I really cannot move him or he runs down my back and then back up to my shoulder. It's gotten irritating and to the point that if my husband isn't there to remove him, I am struggling for several minutes to try and catch Sunny. So, do I persevere?

Let me add that when I say it is irritating, I am more often laughing incredulously than getting truly irritated. Perhaps my stance is incorrect and I should be firm and serious? I just don't know what to do. With my five year-old son, it is easier, but with Sunny, I feel as if I am learning how to "parront" all over again.

Also, can you recommend a book and/or websites for learning more about clicker training? I am willing to try it and it has always been of interest to me.

Thanks again, Sophie.

Laura

[itchysquid]

Here are some interesting articles, which may help you understand your bird's behaviour.

http://www.thegabrielfoundation.org/.../dominance.pdf

ParrotChronicles.com

[Mammabird]

I would give him the benefit of the doubt in the am that he's hungry AND wants you...

He's still very young so he should be very easy to work with (vs an older bird set in his ways whose trained his people to behave exactly the way he wants them).

Do your best to encourage independent play, it's extremely important. If he's reluctant to play with toys, put him on a table (not you) and roll balls, jingle some bells, let him see you play with something. Make sure if you have a playgym it's stocked full of fun things for him to do. If he doesn't learn how to play by himself and you are his only source of entertainment you will have behavior problems later, big ones like incessent screaming or plucking. Even if he seems unhappy at first, after he's fed put him on his playgym and walk away. Don't hover, don't keep walking back to check. Just ignore any pitiful noises. You can and should make a contact call like a whistle from another room. Let him hear you because it's only natural in a flock when a member leaves to sqawk to keep in contact. Play peek-a-bird around doorways etc. and always use the same sounding whistle. Eventually he'll learn to call you that way instead of ear shattering screeches.

One thing I always did with my birds was greet them in the am (obviously your little fella is still being fed so he needs to come out - but maybe you can put him on a small t-stand vs your shoulder and let him sit with you in the bathroom while you get ready for work or school) and greet them when I got home from work or wherever but went about doing the things I needed to do before letting them out. Only after I was done do I let them out. This way they don't scream as soon as they see me other then the happy hey mamma's home greeting.

They can be very stubborn and will manipulate you into doing what they want you to do. Just remember, like a human toddler you wouldn't let a baby eat icecream for dinner just because it's throwing a fit. You can be firm and loving at the same time and you will end up with a happy well adjusted bird.

I'm not an advocate of allowing birds on shoulders, there are exceptions to every rule but IMHO access should only be a privilege granted to a very well behaved bird that you've known for a very long time and can predict it's actions (as much as you can predict what a bird will do!)

[Valo's Moirana]

my comments in blue

Originally Posted by CrazyforCockatiels

Our Nanday Sunny is three months old today and I am afraid he's established shoulder dominance owing to my lax attitude where this is concerned.

now, my opinion might be viewed a little unpopular, but what do you understand when you talk about "shoulder dominance". i personally allow my birds on the shoulder for various reasons, convinience just being one of them. dominance is a relative word - i don't want to dominate my birds, i want them to live with me. i don't believe in the dominance term to begin with when it comes to bird behavior, but that's a different story

He is still being handfed formula although he is almost fully weaned and has been eating a well-balanced diet of fruits, veggies, eggs, pellets, and seeds daily.

Some questions and concerns: When Sunny hears us coming into the house (even when the garage door goes up) or up in the morning, no matter how early, he squawks until we go get him. He's just about conditioned us to this even though we don't run to him when he squawks. We do attend to him eventually as we get the birds up when we get up and it's time for everyone's breakfast. Not sure if the squawking has to do with his formula feeding time or if it's a flock behavior or if it's something we should be concerned about. It doesn't bother us but I hope it's not a negative behavior.

i agree 100% with julie on this one - if you don't mind this routine, nothing wrong with it. ms bella girl goes crazy in the morning until she can come out and get breakfast - we don't have a problem with it

Next, when I am near Sunny's cage, he wants out. If I open the cage, he immediately grabs onto my arm or my shirt and pulls himself up to my shoulder and sometimes on top of my head. Also, if he is on his perch and I am anywhere near it, he leans over and steps right onto my shoulder or grabs a hold of my shirt and pulls himself up. This doesn't bother me but is it a negative behavior?

see above - i allow valo and bella on my shoulder and valo does sit on my head regularly. i guess the only thing you have to establish is a way to get him off ;) treats work wonder.

Also, when I try to put Sunny back in his cage after he's ridden on my shoulder, he moves around to the other shoulder or down my back so I can't get him to step up. He also plants his feet firmly and hunkers down so he's impossible to lift. He doesn't want me to put him back but sometimes I have things to do that don't involve a Nanday conure on my shoulder.

sort of lean against a wall when you want him to come off - not crushing him, but approach the wall with your back... as you SLOWLY close the distance, sunny will walk to one of the shoulders (go figure as there's no way he can sit on your back) and he should step up just fine - my vet recommended this and it works great if mr. stinkefuss doesn't wanna let mama go to work