Pluck No More

[angelicarboreals]

No harm done. I think sometimes it is hard to get a feel for how someone is trying to say something, especially with members you may have not talked to before. I got a little defensive because it seems people are quick to pass judgment on this forum sometimes.

[magdalena]

I think (not to further derail this thread) that as much as medicating a bird as a first (though that wasn't the case here) step is bad I can see why someone (even a vet) would suggest it. Habits are forming, medication generally works so if you get the bird to stop before the habit is formed maybe you have a better chance of stopping the plucking before it becomes a lifelong problem.

[Dana64]

I do not think this thread was "derailed". The internet is a hard place to share thoughts, ideas and beliefs so that another person understands them the way you intended. This forum is no exception.

I have learned that bird-owners are probably the most passionate of pet owners. Everyone has an opinion on how a bird should be cared for properly. And bird-owners are NOT shy about sharing those opinions. Again, this forum is no exception to that.

It was not my intention to tell angelicaboreals how to care for her bird, merely to show her there were different options. My mistake is that I did not get my information across the way I intended for her to receive it. I also did not know she had already gone different routes with no success.

I still believe that this thread is a good one. It has very important information here on behavior-related issues such as plucking...

.... nevermind that a healthy debate once in awhile can be good for us ...

[angelicarboreals]

I think that is true. I think this thread has already become a good example of how differing opinions can come together, and maybe not be taken as intended at first, but the thread can remain civil and not go downhill or turn into an internet screaming match.

Feather picking (as I have learned in the past six months) is about the most stressful thing you can deal with a pet bird. I cannot help but think that it is somehow my fault, but as my vet told me even with good nutrition, a roomy cage, ample time out, plenty of sunshine and toys it still happens in some birds.

Dana, I know you mentioned your bird has had behavioral issues too. I was curious if you had any advice for me. My senegal, since coming here, will not let anyone pick him up at all. He does get time out of his cage (I have to open the cage top and he comes and sits on top and plays) but if I reach to pick him up he acts like I am trying to kill him. I know his former owner very well, and know that she would never have abused him. But, if I try to get him to step up he will usually bite and fly off screaming. (He is fully flighted right now, as we think a bad wing trim started the issue and do not want to clip him again right now.) He will let me pick him up off the floor, but again he will take off at any sudden movement, or bite. If he bites I try to do a correction wobble and tell him no, but off he goes again. I am supposed to be retraining him to step up, but I am beating my head against the wall because it is hard to do when he does not want to stay put.

I know he was well adjusted at his old home, she could flip him on his back and do anything with him. I just don't understand why, since coming here, he is so bent on not letting anyone interact with him. As far as I have gotten that he is comfortable with, is scratching his head. Sometimes I wonder if he just does not like me. I have no wish to rehome him, but sometimes I think to myself if someone were to come over that he fell in love with and would let handle him I would face a very real dilemma in wanting to let him go live a happier life.

Ok, that is my mini pour-my heart-out for the day.

[Willow]

If his former owner were to come over, would he still allow handling, or is that not possible? I'm just wondering if that might give you more info to go with.

Working with border collie rescue and doing dog behavior work, I am definitely a proponent of medication when straight behavior modification is unsuccessful. It sounds like you and your vet are working together and combining drug therapy with behavioral and that is key. Good luck!

[Dana64]

Originally Posted by angelicarboreals

I think that is true. I think this thread has already become a good example of how differing opinions can come together, and maybe not be taken as intended at first, but the thread can remain civil and not go downhill or turn into an internet screaming match.

Truer words never said. My original post was not a judgement... but upon re-reading it, it might have been taken that way. I was just being "passionate", I guess... but again, I never intended any disrespect, judgement, or anything negative.

Originally Posted by angelicarboreals

Feather picking (as I have learned in the past six months) is about the most stressful thing you can deal with a pet bird. I cannot help but think that it is somehow my fault, but as my vet told me even with good nutrition, a roomy cage, ample time out, plenty of sunshine and toys it still happens in some birds.

Feather picking/plucking AND other behavioral issues ARE TOTALLY the MOST stressful thing to go through!!! I know from my own experience that if I were a bird, Mackie would have had me plucking myself by now (instead I'm just pulling out my hair)... it is easy to get frustrated and angry because you KNOW you are doing EVERYTHING right, EVERYTHING you can think of and the silly bugger still plucks himself nekkid and attacks you every chance he gets. I have had MANY MANY posts here about this and had other board members (hi Mark!) tell me to "step... away... from... the... bird!" because Mackie was pushing my buttons so GOOD. If it were not for my friend Tom Lawless, who recommended AviCalm to me, I do NOT know where we (Mackie and I) would be today. God's truth.

Originally Posted by angelicarboreals

Dana, I know you mentioned your bird has had behavioral issues too. I was curious if you had any advice for me. My senegal, since coming here, will not let anyone pick him up at all. He does get time out of his cage (I have to open the cage top and he comes and sits on top and plays) but if I reach to pick him up he acts like I am trying to kill him. I know his former owner very well, and know that she would never have abused him. But, if I try to get him to step up he will usually bite and fly off screaming. (He is fully flighted right now, as we think a bad wing trim started the issue and do not want to clip him again right now.) He will let me pick him up off the floor, but again he will take off at any sudden movement, or bite. If he bites I try to do a correction wobble and tell him no, but off he goes again. I am supposed to be retraining him to step up, but I am beating my head against the wall because it is hard to do when he does not want to stay put.

I know he was well adjusted at his old home, she could flip him on his back and do anything with him. I just don't understand why, since coming here, he is so bent on not letting anyone interact with him. As far as I have gotten that he is comfortable with, is scratching his head. Sometimes I wonder if he just does not like me. I have no wish to rehome him, but sometimes I think to myself if someone were to come over that he fell in love with and would let handle him I would face a very real dilemma in wanting to let him go live a happier life.

Ok, that is my mini pour-my heart-out for the day.

Angelica, read Mackie's blog for some of his history. I adopted Mackie last May. I did not know when I got him that he had been abused. I knew he had been neglected. When I picked him up, his chest feathers were "downy" and I was told he was "molting"... (yeah, right!) but I had enough confidence in my abilities to believe that I could turn Mackie around. I did not think for a second I would have to go the "medication" (homeopathic or otherwise) route... I was wrong.

Mackie would step up for us no problem. He would sit on our shoulders for hours if we let him. He would be affectionate. And then out of the blue, with NO WARNING, he would attack. And I am not talking about a little nip here and there... full on, blood-drawing, bruising, impaling ATTACKS... re-homing Mackie crossed my mind on more than a few occassions... but I felt I owed him better than that.

He would break off all he is feathers, he would make himself look like a little duckling... all fuzzy... then let them grow back, only to do it all over again... Then he got BUSY and plucked himself nekkid. This was by October-ish and my research-for-a-fix kicked into high gear. I started the AviCalm & Featheriffic on December 23rd. By the end of January 2009 he was fully feathered and 80% of his behavioral issues had ceased or had eased greatly. The other 20% is the nasty language he knows, but at least now, even though he still says the words, the emotion and the meltdown following, are not there...

As for your bird not stepping up and not wanting to be held by you, I can only surmise that this is a "bonding issue"... or a trust issue... I can't remember if you mentioned how long you have had him...

Angelica, I would be more than pleased to help you. Even if it's just a shoulder to lean on. I know what you are going through.

PM me, if you would like, and we can take this conversation off-board...

[angelicarboreals]

Willow, unfortunately his former owner lives 2.5 hours away. I would call her to see if she could come, but I recently took in a TAG from her because she found that she has asthma and her doctor told her to get rid of her birds. I am not sure if she could come be around him or not. It might be worth a try though. I feel bad for him.

Dana, I will send you a PM tonight.