Frustration (two-fold): aggressive Sun Conure and non-bird ppl

[jenseits]

I've got two things I'm really frustrated about right now. One I need advice about, the other just a sympathetic ear from other bird people.

1) I have a sun conure who I've had for about two years. One year ago I brought home a WC Pionus. Despite all my mental preparation that "they might not get along" I really didn't think that it would end up being quite as bad. I knew they probably wouldn't be best buds, but I didn't actually think Stewie would still be out for blood after a year.

I understand how to help a *person* win over an aggressive bird, but those things don't really apply to a bird (I can't have Mika feed him treats, for example).

Obviously I take every precaution: I've clipped Stewie so it's harder for him to fly at her. I keep them far apart. I let Mika's flights grow out so she could fly away from him. I make sure I pay plenty of attention to him, etc. But if given an opportunity he'll fly onto Mika's cage and try to get at her. And once he's in that mood, it takes very quick action, dexterity and a willingness to get bitten for me to get him off and away from her. (All the while I'm trying to scrape him off her cage, I also need to shoo her away because she'll try to defend her space. Unfortunately he's got the advantage of speed, agility and much better aim than she does (and it turns out she doesn't know how to fly and doesn't have the good sense to run away from him).

To clarify, this doesn't happen all the time and it's been a long time since Stewie has actually managed to take a bite at Mika. But even it it only happens once every couple of months, it's enough that it stresses me out. Longer term, I would really like them to actually have at least some sort of detente, as opposed to me having to be hyper-vigilant all the time. (since the last incident over the weekend, I've clipped another flight feather to shorten Stewie's reach and moved their cages even further apart. I still take one bird with me whenever I leave the room.)



2) When I vent my frustration to my friends, I basically feel like they think I'm a total fruitcake who doesn't have her animals "under control". I get a little defensive, which doesn't help me articulate well and educate them about the nature of parrot behavior/dynamics.

They tell me I need to:
- establish myself as the alpha bird
- throw things at Stewie when he gets aggressive to distract him
- spray him with water
- put a shock collar on him (they're joking about this one)
- let them "work it out"
- let them to research on bird behavior so they can give me advice

I tell them that parrot are flock creatures who don't have a hierarchy, but they don't believe me. (Because after all, what the heck do I know, right? I only spend all my waking/non-working life trying to learn how to do right by my critters).

Besides thinking that their "solutions" are terrible (a. there is no flock leader who can tell others in the flock how to behave. b. besides possibly injuring Stewie AND undoing all the work I've done to tame/train him since I've rescued him, etc), the problem with their suggestions is they don't take into consideration that my IMMEDIATE concern when Stewie goes after Mika is Mika's safety. Even if Stewie saw me as the alpha, that doesn't address how he views Mika. If I threw something at him (seriously?!?!), assuming I didn't injure him, he's not going to let go of the cage bars and all that would do is piss him off even more and make him do double time to take his aggression out on her. I don't have time to grab a spray bottle once he's on her cage... it takes all my concentration to get him off (and when he's riled up, he won't step up nicely... he bites the crap out of me because I'm stopping him from his intended mission). If I let them "work it out", Mika would end up at the vet at least every couple of months.

The issue is of course that my friends are all dog people. But despite all this, these are some of my best friends and I love them. It's just that they happen to annoy me when it comes to their attitude about my birds.

As you can tell by the novel I just typed, I'm more than a little frustrated.

If anyone can offer constructive advice about my sun conure's aggression, it's welcome (but to warn you, I'm still feeling a bit defensive, so please be nice). Anyone have birds who used to hate each other who can now be trusted in the same room alone? How'd you do it?

[Lori~D]

I understand your frustration. I guess I own so many birds that dont get along I just live with the fact that some birds will never ever get along and must be kept safe from each other. I love them all and its there nature so I adapt. They are not "out of control" they are just more "wild" then our other domesticated animals. You may Never Ever get them to even be safe in the same room alone as they are two distinct different species. You may have to just decide if you yourself can live with that and cater to their needs instead. Instead of thinking of them as your two pet birds....try thinking of them as two distinct wild animal species that cannot be kept together yet you still care for them both as individuals (like we do in the zoo) and if your expectations change then it may become easier for all involved. Can one live in one room and one in another and still share half of your life??

[jenseits]

Originally Posted by Lori~D

You may Never Ever get them to even be safe in the same room alone as they are two distinct different species. You may have to just decide if you yourself can live with that and cater to their needs instead.

I can live with that. (I guess I'm already living with that. ) And 95% of the time that works just fine. I was just wondering if there's anything I can actively do to help the situation.

Originally Posted by Lori~D

Can one live in one room and one in another and still share half of your life??

Not really. I live in a very small space with one open living area, where I spend all my non-sleeping time when I'm home. The "bedroom" doesn't have enough room for either of the cages.

[Cindy Q]

I've introduced 6 birds. None of them liked eachother right off. Some still don't and some now are best friends. Little of it has to do with anything i've done. Its really a matter of them establishing their own flock dynamics on their own terms and at their own pace. As for me, I just take note of and then accomodate whatever the flock dynamics happen to be at whatever time because as i've said they've changed dramatically over the years and sometimes seasonally they change.

Jezabel- the african grey was first here
Ginger - the pionus came second and Jezabel terrorized him, attacked and chased him. It was miserably stressful for both Ginger and I with me refereeing them constantly. Ginger didn't fight back though, he always at least helped me by being vigilant for himself and fled from Jezabel constantly.
Tiki- the umbrella cocktoo came next and suddenly Jezabel and Ginger became united in their hatred of Tiki and while their relationship blossomed, they spent their time together harrassing Tiki. Ginger became surprisingly aggressive with Tiki and Tiki's timid personality made her a constant target for both of them, Ginger being the bigger bully of the 2. At that point Ginger and Jezabel became inseperable and stopped seeking out interaction with us, their people, still people friendly but happier to be alone together.
Bliss- the m2 came next, I got Bliss specifically for Tiki. Since Tiki was the odd bird out and seemed to have such a sweet personality I looked specifically for a cockatoo for her to connect with that wasn't a bully and was as gentle and sweet natured as Tiki was. Welp, Bliss was always, till the moment she passed away the odd bird out. Tiki reveled in her new power and tormented Bliss. Jezabel and Tiki became new friends. Ginger for the most part left Tiki alone, unless he was hormonal but Tiki remembered all of his tormenting and continues to this day to steer clear of Ginger, despite the fact that he RARELY bothers her at all anymore. They can share the same stand and he's lost almost all interest in Tiki, all the birds actually,he bothers no one anymore and for the most part is nervous about being near any bird but Jezabel. His only concern these days is where Jezabel is. Ginger was always intimidated by Bliss' size, he never bothered her at all. They co-existed well. Jezabel and Tiki however terrorized Bliss and Bliss was such a gentle soul she didn't know how to get away or defend herself, she always screamed for my help. Eventually Bliss and Jezabel became tentative friends, they would preen eachother on occasion but Jezabel is head honcho and is a little tempremental. One moment your friend if you preen her and she has a use for you and then not your friend all based on her whims.
Then came Tallulah Bean - the fearless white bellied caique :) Well as predicted Jezabel didn't like her. At this point Ginger has mellowed out and mostly just steers clear of everyone but his friend Jezabel. Tiki is intimidated by everyone but Bliss (whom she can't be left around) and can co-exist with everyone beautifully. Bliss is lonely and has no real friends and is constantly harrassed by Tiki. Tallulah just wants to be friends she is completely fearless, so much so that I have to be hyper-vigilant. She actively seeks out Jezabel and Bliss Jezabel fights with her but surprisingly Bliss and Tallulah formed a friendship. They were constant companions which initially freaked me out. Bliss' head was the same size as Tallulah's whole body.
When Bliss died,Jezabel and Tallulah formed a tentative relationship similar to the relationship Bliss and Jezabel had. Occasionally they preen eachother but for the most part Jezabel to this day still harrasses everyone but has a preening relationship with everyone on occasion. But if theres troubloe in the room its inevitably Jezabel whose at the center of it. Everyone else can be left out unattended and not bother one another. Tallulah is interested in being friends with Tiki but Tiki is a nervous girl and is a people bird that doesn't seem interested in forming friendships with the other birds. She's content to just avoid them all.
Recently, i've borught home our last addition Harlow and so far its too soon to tell. She hates everyone and they for the most part dislike her as well. Ginger, is afraid of her and steers clear as does Tiki. Jezabel doesn't actively terrorize her but if her tail happens to be in her space or she tries to climb to where Jezabel is, she'll bite her. Harlow doesn't actively go after anyone and for the most part can be left unatteneded with everyone but Tallulah. Tallulah viciously hates Harlow and has to be caged when Harlow is out. Its too soon to say if they will always hate eachother. I hope not.

Sorry this was so long. A lot of odd flock dynamics that as you can see have changed drastically over the years. None of it as you can see having anything to do with anything that i've done. I just accomodate wherever they happen to be with eachother. Right now everyone coexists beautifully except for Harlow and Tallulah. They get seperate out times and are never letf together unattended, most times not even atteneded because Tallulah is SO fast!

[jenseits]

Oh my goodness Cindy, you sound like you have quite the soap opera on your hands! Your story actually put a smile on my face. You just can't underestimate how much these creatures we share our lives with are first and foremost individuals.

[Cindy Q]

There can be a lot of drama and you are so right, they are if nothing else complete individuals. There seems to be no rhyme or reason as to why some get along and others don't. Or why they can hate eachother one moment and then be best friends in the next. It makes life so much easier when everyone gets along and i've found that in my own flock the longer they are all here the better they co-exist, so far anyway (except for Tiki and Bliss, they never got along). Hoping that holds true and becomes the case for Tallulah and Harlow. Hopefully that'll become true in your case as well.

[Lori~D]

yes see - I have MArlee coming from New Mex and Calypso is her intended Companion. I pray they can both benefit from each other (and even share a double Mac cage one day) but it could be they could HATE each other so we are prepared to have Two Macaws with Two lives....in our small space,lol.

[NotEnoughTime]

For some reason, in life, certain people rub us the wrong way...

There may be nothing wrong with the other person - we just don't like them.

I've encountered this issue with dogs as well. It just doesn't matter who is the "alpha dog" or who is the trainer - the dog is straining at the lead to get at another dog... Even well-trained dogs will go by another dog with his or her hackles raised on occasion.

I suspect there is the same issue with parrots. Or any other animal with an intelligence quotient above that of the earthworm...

The best we can do in these situations is attempt to get the guys to at least develop a tolerance for each other. In the worst case scenarious we have to separate and keep separate the two individuals involved.

They are, after all, individuals - with their own thoughts, fears and feelings...

[jenseits]

Originally Posted by NotEnoughTime

For some reason, in life, certain people rub us the wrong way... There may be nothing wrong with the other person - we just don't like them.

Yep, I totally agree! I know I have off days when I just want to be left alone. And there are some people I just don't like, even when I know in my head that they are perfectly decent people. And I fully believe we need to allow our birds to have those same moods/preferences, etc and not *force* any interaction. But I've also been "trained" throughout my life not to go up to people and slug them in the face just because they irritate me. In an ideal world, they'd like each other, but I know that's unrealistic. I'm just hoping for "leave each other alone" - just like I do with people I don't like.

For all I know, there's is something that Mika is doing or communicating him that sets him off. ("Neener neener, I'm getting scritches and you're not! phllllbt!" ) I can't force him to like her. But if there is anything I can do to help them get along, I want to know what my options are.

Originally Posted by NotEnoughTime

The best we can do in these situations is attempt to get the guys to at least develop a tolerance for each other.

Any suggestions for how to help them develop a tolerance? I've been giving it time (and will give it much more) and also started feeding Stewie a treat whenever he's inside and I walk by his cage while holding Mika. (Also, when we take them out in their travel cages for trips or picnics, we place their cages somewhat close together, so they are proximate but can't reach each other --- in that case, they tend to completely ignore the other. ) But are there other specific things I can try to help them build a tolerance?

[NotEnoughTime]

Hmmm - I'm not sure how to provide suggestions to someone who could "WRITE A BOOK" and essentially already alreayd have on this board!!

I will try...

The essence of any behavioural training to reduce a behaviour without using a negative approach is to find an incompatible behaviour and train it up - so that that behaviour becomes more desirable than the behaviour you are trying to reduce. What is a behaviour that is incompatible with the aggressive all-out attack? Sitting quietly while Mika is out of the cage? Another behaviour?

Of course the selection of the reinforcing stimulus is critical. If it is more reinforcing to "attack" than to perform another behaviour then the attack will occur.

Unfortunately you know your birds best. So it is hard for an outsider to say what exactly you should do. Obviously you have tried the treat/no treat approach and, it seems, treats are not working. Therefore, by definition, the treat is not a reinforcing stimulus for that behaviour - or the other reinforcers are stronger.

So what other reinforcing stimuli are there? What is there that your bird wants beyond anything else? Is it food related? Social? Or what? Instead of "pairing" as in clicker training (which is a pairing of a "treat" with a "click") utilize the stimulus directly for the desired behaviour so that the "once removed" aspect of the click is removed. I think you will find this method quite effective.

If absolutely nothing works (and this may be the case) then resorting to a negative approach may reduce the behaviour but then an alternative "good" behaviour should still be available to reward. Moving Stewie closer to Mika's cage and giving a time-out if he reacts and a reward if he does not.

In behavioural training the definition of a reward is one that serves to increase a behaviour and a punishment one that serves to decrease a behaviour. If training is not working and you are spinning your wheels then you do not have an appropriate reward.

Unfortunately one has to pretty much be in the situation to be able to provide advice... Sigh...