Red Factor Suns

[Monica]

It was previously mentioned that Red Factor Suns are hybrids.... meaning that they came about much like the red factor canaries, and thus all red factor canaries are hybrids. However, I'm more into the belief that Red Factor Suns came about through selective breeding, much like the all red Congo African Grey, supposedly a double pied red factor.

Red Factor Suns

Red Factor Canaries

Part 4 Keeping and Breeding THE AFRICAN GREY Filmed by Eelco Meyjes

Red Pied Double Factor African Grey

Okay, so this got me wondering... and I asked a genetics group their opinions... Here's the replies I've gotten back....



Hi,
A hybrid is NOT a mutation and the fact that you can breed a "single factor red" to a normal sun and get 50% reds should tell everyone that it is a true mutation. If you breed a Catalina macaw to a Blue and Gold you do not get 50% Blue and Golds.
Scott Stringer

That web site sounds more like somebody bitter over the fact that they cannot get away with charging buyers $500 for normal suns because that is what everyone gets for the reds. The writer is describing the development of a strain not a trans-mutation. If you have ever seen a Sunday you will realize that you could not come up with a bird the color of a red sun, some look almost like pure Jendays and many look like Suns just starting to color out on their backs. I'm attaching a picture of my friend's red suns since I can't find one of my own.
Scott

Hi Scott

These are what I would call tarnegine suns, I only know my birds and my are now line breed for over fiffteen years, I'm still working on getting them as good as yours.

I have attached a photo of two normal sun and one of a mature pair of line breed targerine suns

Mick

Normal Sun Conure


Second Normal Sun Conure


Line-Bred Tangerine Suns

Hello all,

I have attached a photo of a young Red Sun and a mature Red Sun.

Best regards,
Richard

Young Red Factor Sun


Mature Red Factor Sun

(in reply to mutations being created via hybridisation)

You are referring to the transfer of mutations from one species to another by hybridization. I should think most people would be against that, as the birds are no longer pure after that. Those red factor canaries are all hybrids. Everything I've red about the red sun conures is that they found birds with more red than normal and bred for that trait, they aren't hybrids at all. I remember reading about them when they first came about.

If people breed closely related species for the purpose of transferring mutations, we will end up with nothing but a bunch of hybrids and the pure species will be lost to us. It is best to wait for mutations to turn up on their own and they will in time. We no longer have access to new wild bloodlines! What we have now is it and if we screw up the bloodlines, then there is no going back.

Stella
and Flock

[xafsmom]

What great info, Monica! I've also been asking around to some of the genetic breeders out there for more info, just for curiosity sake. Personally, I'm not fond of the large amount of red/orange in the suns, I prefer the buttery yellow, but that's probably because I own Jendays, and they have that red/orange chest lol. Speaking of mutations, have you heard of those 'lutino' sun conures and macaws? I've only seen a small amount of pictures, but omg sooo pretty.

[Monica]

Here's another reply, before I reply to your post...
Hi Richard,

readily nice birds, truly what I'm breeding towards,
Hi have also so noticed that the green on the back of these tangerine suns becomes darker and tends to have a red suffusing to the green feathers on the back and this red suffusing stays on these feather even when they moult out and grow back as the yellow feather in maturity as scene on Richards mature red sun,

Hybrid jansun also have a few stand out feature like full green backs and the bronze colour on the belly and tend to have a brighter yellow on the back of the head. I have hand raised a lot well over 50 jansun for another parrot farm and these like were at the time sold only into the pet trade but they all like simular to each other. I no longer hand raise for the parrot farm,
Thank you for sharing.

Mick

Not entirely sure I've seen lutino sun conures, but I have seen pics of a lutino nanday, lutino dusky (saw in person!), and pied suns! I've also seen pied severe macaws, pied B&G's, lutino B&G's, opaline B&G's, blue B&G's, and opaline blue B&G's, among many other mutations!

Dusky.jpg

Color Mutations
Conures
WHITE Scarlet Macaw
Natural Yellow Mutation of a Blue and Gold

Pied Sun Conure Pics
Pied3_cock6[1].jpg

Pied3_cock7[1].jpg Piedsuncock1[1].jpg



Pied sun and what appears to be a Kakariki mutation

[birdsnreps]

well if they really WERE hybrids, what would a "red sun" be hybridized wtih to make them red?? what would they be breeding to a sun conure to get that coloration? they look like mutations to me....

[xafsmom]

I love pure Jendays, I love the uniform colours, but OOOOhhhhh that pied sun? /lust! I love all that buttery yellow with just a bit of orange hehe.

[MicahEspudo]

I would love the red factor suns... But the natural yellow B&G is what I have been wanting for a long time!!!

[ROYJOY]

The red grey is cool, but i like my suns yellow.

[Monica]

They would have to be hybridized with jenday colors to get a more red like color... however, I would believe that the red factor suns are also natural mutations!

Just don't confuse a kakariki (or what I believe to be one, as that's the only thing it appears to be) with the sun!

[Monica]

Another reply....

Mick, Scott, Monica, Richard and others

They should not be called 'Tangerine'. The Tangerine name was coined by Jim Hayward for colour morphs that are unable to produce red, not those that suddenly can. So the Tangerine mutations I know about include the Orangeface roseicollis, the Yellowface fischeri, the Yellowface Cockatiel and Yellow phase Lorikeets.

These Sun Conures are Red Suffused birds, equivalent to a Redfronted Turq or Scarlet-chested Parrots. There are strains of this mutation in other species as well, such as Princess parrots.

This mutation is not produced by simple genetics, but is the result I believe, of tandem repeats in a gene that allows red pigmentation in the particular species. Tandem repeats are repeated segments within genes that amplify its effects and they are now known to be the basis of most selective breeding to 'improve traits'. Through dedicate work, breeders are able to gradually select for an 'improvement' in a trait, in effect selecting for individuals with more and more tandem repeats in their Red Suffusion gene.

These selective traits will tend to behave dominantly when outcrossed to normal, but the feature of tandem repeats is that their numbers can vary significantly from one generation to the next and they are not always inherited in a standard Mendellian manner.

Terry

[MicahEspudo]

Does anyone know any breeders that sell red factor suns?!?!