Should I get her wings clipped?

[debelm2]

The great thing about clipping is that you can always change your mind later as long as they fledge first. Maybe even get through the "testing" and "who is boss" stage and then depending on the circumstances you can choose then to let them grow out and try it. When my B&G was a baby most people trimmed their birds wings before they learned to fly and so I did the same to Mickey. She will climb down her cage and waddle every where she wants to go. After a lot of years, I finally let her wings grow out and I tried working with her by "tossing" her to a play stand from a very short distance and trying to make the distance a little farther each time. But I could tell by the death grip she had on my hand each time I tried it, that she didn't really enjoy it so I stopped. So she continues to comute on foot instead of in the air!! :) I wish now that I could see her fly, I think it would be beautiful but I guess now it's to late. But I know that if I had allowed that years ago I probably wouldn't have her now because while raising three kids that were going in and out all the time and so much else going on, at some point she probably would have gotten out an open door or something. Now that things are quieter on the old home front I hope to do it differently this time. I will definitely let Tonka learn to fly first and then see how it goes. I know if there is one really close call, I will probably grab the scissors but will be sure to cut gradually. But the other thought is teaching recall. Has anybody had any luck with this? Is it really difficult to do?

[jenseits]

Originally Posted by debelm2

But the other thought is teaching recall. Has anybody had any luck with this? Is it really difficult to do?

Seems like one of those things that needs to be taught really, really early in a bird's life for it to become reliable. There are some videos on YouTube of a family (don't remember the username) that freeflies their macaws and they explain the process a bit. I'm sure a YT search on free flighted macaws will turn something up.

The danger is in thinking that you've got recall down pat and you get careless. Once outside, the bird might startle and be too distracted to come back.

I've been teaching Stewie recall and he's very unreliable. He flies to me on cue about as consistently as he steps up... which is not a good thing.

Even if I thought his recall was perfect, I'd never let him outside without a harness. But it's a good thing for him to know, nonetheless, so we keep working on it.

[svolk]

Originally Posted by debelm2

But the other thought is teaching recall. Has anybody had any luck with this? Is it really difficult to do?

I do recall training with my budgies (only indoors - recalling outdoors is a whole different ballgame) and it is very easy to do! I have a verbal cue of "come here" and I gesture with my hand and then leave my finger outstretched after the gesture. When they fly to me I *immediately* treat them with one nibble from an Avicake and verbal praise. It took me quite a few tries to get the timing down because the timing is important. And you can start from being next to them, even a foot away, showing them the treat so that they know that a reward is involved. Then gradually get further and further back, and I can recall from across the room. I admit that sometimes my training is not consistent and I slack off a lot of the time, so we haven't moved up to recalling from a different room (but they usually follow me anyways). I would try it with my tiel but she is not nearly as food motivated as the budgies are, and I haven't found the perfect treat to train with her yet.

And with flight there usually is a surge in confidence for a few weeks once they realize that they can now come and go as they please, but that does lessen. I read that a lot of people clip during that phase because they believe that their bird will become less tame or not listen as well - it's my opinion that they probably weren't out of the confidence phase.

[Amie]

Also remember the difference between a free-flighted budgie or tiel, and a free-flighted ekkie, grey, or macaw. A super-aggressive budgie or tiel is much easier to deal with without clipping. . . .but sometimes it's in the best interest of all involved if a larger, temporarily aggressive bird, decides it needs to kill everything to prove it is the master of the home.

We clip as a last resort, and we even clipped several of our rescues who were endangering other parrots - we had so many in our home that having separate out of cage time was pretty impossible. But a clipped aggressor on his own playstand was safer than a flighted bad guy. . . and by the time the clip grew out, the behavior problem had been dealt with. We only had to clip one guy on more than one occassion.

On the other hand, my Scarlett is a clumsy flyer. She still, after 11 years, cannot figure out how big her wingspan is. I'm worried lately that I may have to clip her again because she's been hitting the edge of her wing on the wall to the hallway--which of course causes her to spiral out of control!! We're working on it, though. We still have a few weeks before the rest of the flight feathers she previously barbered are all molted out and regrown, so hopefully they'll give her a little more balance

[debelm2]

I was actually thinking of teaching the recall just in case Tonka ever got out accidentily if I chose not to clip his wings. I would definitely use the harness outside. No matter how careful we are, clipped or not, there is always that chance of them flying off so if he learned to come when called I sure would feel alot better about it.

Sarah, can you tell me if your budgies are young little ones or older birds and how long you have been working with them on this? And thanks so much for the details. I will be keeping them in mind when Tonka finally gets airborne!!!

And I will definitely be clipping Tonka's wings if his little tantrums are really difficult or if his "terrible two's" go into the three's"

Thanks again to all for your thoughts. WONDERFUL FORUM!!!!!!!

[JulieF]

Wow, I go to work and look at all the good discussion I miss!
I would for sure teach recall, even if I planned on always having a harness on Marty. If he would ever get out, I think that would only improve the chances of getting him back, especially if he could see me and I had a snack in my hand. It would resemble the training that he had known. And if he's out and about and scared (maybe he would be totally confident and fly away, who knows!) but if he was scared, then I think he would grab the chance at doing something familiar with someone familiar. I don't think this would be very different from having a dog get out. and I don't see the training as being very different from teaching recall to a dog. But then again, I've never owned a bird! So I could be totally wrong.

[debelm2]

The first bird I ever got was a little hand fed cockatiel. It's wings were clipped before it learned how to fly. One day it got out, dont even remember how, but it flew up into some real tall pine trees in our yard. It flew back and forth through these tree's for the longest time. We didn't have a clue how to catch it. It was cold and snowing lightly. It finally started turning dark and we could here him calling to me but could no longer see him. We finally gave up. I knew we would probably find him gone the next day. I sent my husband out to look around because I couldn't bare the thought of finding him on the ground. I truely thought he would have froze to death. My husband came back in telling me he was still out there, that he could hear him!!!!!! I didn't believe him. I went out and sure enough I could here him calling. I called to him and he kept calling back and finally flew and landed on the peak of our roof. Our home is only one story. I told my husband to get a ladder quick. I climbed till I was at the bottom edge of the roof and called and called from him and he ran back and forth along the top of the ridge, calling back but wouldn't come to me. Finally the little guy just jumped slightly and slid down the roof to me on the snow!!!!! I couldn't believe it!!!! I had my baby back and he was alive. We took him to the vets and he checked him he out and he never even got as much as the sniffles even after spending the night out in the snow! I really believe that he tried to come back to me when he first found himself outside but because he had never learned to fly he just didn't know how to come down out of the tree's or off the roof. And now I am sure that is what happened. I just assumed that even if their wings were clipped they would know or be able to fly. Maybe they can fly somewhat but I guess learning to navigate and turn and land and all isn't as easy. He was truely my miracle bird. So I want to do everything I can for Tonka because I might not be so lucky the next time.

[svolk]

Originally Posted by debelm2

Sarah, can you tell me if your budgies are young little ones or older birds and how long you have been working with them on this? And thanks so much for the details. I will be keeping them in mind when Tonka finally gets airborne!!!

No problem! Jerry is roughly 3 years old and we got him as a baby of about 6 months. I've been doing the recall training with him for maybe 6-8 months. He came home to us untame and clipped, we let his wings grow out, and then clipped him again (which I totally regret!) when he started pestering my tiel. Then we let his wings grow out again and will never clip him again.

Winston is roughly 2 years old and we got him a year ago and was told he was about 1 year old. He has had one other home, that we know of, in addition to the pet store where we got him (previous owners dropped him off). He was cage bound and untame when we got him, and he was fully flighted. It literally took him months to learn how to fly - his muscles were extremely atrophied (literally flying from one side of the room to the other would have him out of breath). And it took him months to learn how to turn corners and fly down.

debelm2 brought up a point that I saw with Winston - flying down takes SKILL. I had read that before but never saw to what extent until I observed Winston learn how to fly. He would work on a task sometimes for 30 or 60 minutes (depending on how much stamina he had). He is now a skilled flier who races around the house with Jerry, but he's still a little slower in speed and doesn't do the fancy aerial tricks that Jerry does.

He is still sometimes unsure of himself and his recall is more like target training where I hold out my hand to him at various angles and sometimes he'll take many tries to get it right. He'll fly towards my hand, get nervous, and make a U turn and start again. I try to figure out what the issue is - my hand/arm position, the angle, etc. We're learning together and because of that we really respect each other. Because his feet were weak from being on crappy perches he's come around to things differently than my other 2 birds - like being more comfortable at first on my forearm rather than my finger. And he was more comfortable hopping rather than stepping one foot at a time. It's been slow revelations like that he's opened my eyes to. So to be able to begin recall with him is amazing to me - I'd say we've only begun the recall training in the past month or two with Winston.

[debelm2]

Boy it really must be exciting at your house to see the little guys flying. Great job. It makes me want to try working with Mickey again but of course it would be a little more difficult because of the space she would need to fly but I don't know if I would be doing the right thing since she doesn't seem to enjoy it and she is so much older. Maybe I should just let her be the way she is. But I think I am definitely going to try with Tonka and see what happens. I can always clip later if it doesn't work out. Thanks for the info and good luck with your little guys. They are really cute.

[svolk]

Originally Posted by debelm2

Boy it really must be exciting at your house to see the little guys flying. Great job. It makes me want to try working with Mickey again but of course it would be a little more difficult because of the space she would need to fly but I don't know if I would be doing the right thing since she doesn't seem to enjoy it and she is so much older. Maybe I should just let her be the way she is. But I think I am definitely going to try with Tonka and see what happens. I can always clip later if it doesn't work out. Thanks for the info and good luck with your little guys. They are really cute.

Mickey may be more inclined to try flying if she sees Tonka flying. I don't think my tiel was ever fledged because she was an awful flier at first - crashing into things and couldn't land well or steer well. She was not confident in flying at all at first but she gradually grew more comfortable with it and now she's a master. She also spooks easily and her first instinct is to take flight and I watch how she is in the air when she's nervous about something and now she'll simply circle until she calms down. She's amazing to see in flight.

You can see videos of my guys flying, among other things, at my YouTube page. I will try to get some videos of me practicing recall with the budgies, you guys have inspired me to do that.
YouTube - sarahlvolk's Channel

Good luck with Tonka and Mickey! (sorry if I've hijacked the thread - I know I talk a lot sometimes )