Abundance weaning help!

[U2Boo]

Here is the story in a nut shell.....my husband and I recently bought a baby Catalina, when we brought her home the store had her on 2 "supplimental" feedings per day. She was hatched 6/18/07. It didn't take long for me to figure out the the " two supplimental feedings" were actually code words for "not weaned" but it was to late we were in love with her and she was home with us.
So I did some quick reading and found some info on abundance weaning which sounded far better than what they were telling me at the bird shop that I bought her from. So here I am trying to do the right thing and starting to feel overwhelmed. It isn't because its to big a job, its because I have no experience and no one around me to help tell me what to do. So I am coming to you people for advice and help. Every time I try to talk to someone about this situation, (including my vet) I get the same answers. "She should already be weaned......macaws just beg all the time you have to ignore it..........if you stop hand feeding she will eat when she is hungry..........you are going to create problems later down the road.......macaws should be weaned at 90-110 days and you should be dropping a feeding every 2 weeks......" and it goes on......None of this seems right to me for a bird that doesn't wean for a year in the wild.
So this is what I am doing.....I give her food in her cage always, they are various dried mixes, a little seed, pellets and fresh veggies. In the morning when she gets up I hand feed her, (I let her tell me how much she wants) on average 60cc of macaw formula. Then while she is on her feeding perch I give her all kinds of fresh veggies and various cooked mixes and soaked pellets...basically whatever. She spends an hour digging through that stuff then I put her back into her cage.
In the afternoon I offer her a feeding, this is because I read that sometimes it is good to regress them when stress is high when they change living situations, so the routine is the same as the moring and then again in the early evening. Plus there is play time out on the floor and whatever but for the purpose of this post I am mainly talking about the feeding.
Also I want to note that I don't just feed her to feed her (handformula) I have been able to recognize the difference between her begging for food and her begging for attencion. Also I have noticed that if she has had an espically stressful experience or day (ie. going to the vet) she will beg more and eat more as a way to comfort herself.
So please tell me if there is something else or different I should be doing. And, do I let her wean herself as in let her dictate how much formula she wants to take and as she eats more regular food she will automatically eat lesss formula or do I need to slowly decrease the amount of formula I offer and if so how??????

Thanks in advance!!!!!!!!

[2horse]

I don't raise macaws. You are right in your thinking that it takes longer than 110days. I raise sun conures that wean themselves at about 70 days. I have had an individual that held on for 90days and these are little birds. Give her big bird food in the morning before the formula. If she still begs give her formula after this. Try as much as possible to give a wide variety of foods as this will help later not to have a fussy bird, she needs to recognize food. By giving food first this lessens the need for formula she will wean herself. It does not mean because a bird fledged that they are ready to wean. The night feed will stay for quite a while. It is also not a bad thing to give formula sometimes to older birds after weaning as it is a way to be able to medicate your bird should the need arise. IMO forcing a bird to wean to fast causes emotional stress and immaturity in the long term.

[Monica]

I've heard that with some macaws it may take up to 6 months before they wean... so in truth, I wouldn't sweat it if I were you. My Charlie, a mitred conure, is 13 years old, I've only had him for one year (I got him a year ago this month), and he enjoys a morning snack of handfeeding formula (although it's a MUCH smaller amount than what your catalina is getting! He eats up to maybe a tablespoon?). I usually tends to eat off of a spoon, although I'm sure he'd probably eat from a syringe, too! Last Saturday I gave him some Bene-Bac Gel straight from the tube... after he realised he liked it, he licked the rest off! Therefore, in this regards, I agree with Angie that it's a good idea that your macaw is willing to taking formula.

You can also try offering softened pellets, monkey chow, or even try a small dish of handfeeding formula in her cage or eating stand.

[Beaks]

I just feed a bird all they can hold until they dont want to be handfed any more.

LMAO i have birds older than i am that still get handfed sometimes just because they look like they need a comfort feed.

[2horse]

Second hand formula in this house gets given to all the adults that line up for a taste.

[birdsnreps]

first off, the store should not have sold you an unweaned bird especially cause you say you dont have any experience, and even worse, no one around you to help you. Its not your fault, its the stores fault. they should have at least taught you how to handfeed and had you practice under their supervision before they let him go home with you. its not hard, but its best to be shown by someone who knows how to do it, its a learned skill that takes some time and hands on experience to learn how to do it correctly. your baby is only about 4 months old, she still has a good 2-4 months of handfeeding ahead of her.

second, if you stop handfeeding him and just expect him to just eat on his own, its not gonna happen, no matter what anyone says. the baby will be hungry, and he might eat a little on his own, but most likely its just gonna start loosing weight, a problem that can quickly turn very ugly. you must keep handfeeding him. weaning for macaws is a very gradual process, they take double the amount of time of any other parrot to fully wean. most other parrots, even large cockatoos, only take about 3-4 months to wean, while macaws take no less than 6 months. 2 feedings a day is NOT supplemental. a supplemental feeding, in my opinion, is just one small handfeeding a day, right when the bird is truely weaning, usually around 6-7 months. if you have a scale that measures in grams, i would start weighing your baby daily, in the morning before feeding him. keep records of his weight, and you will know if you need to handfeed him more, or if he is really eating enough to keep his weight up. during the last ~2 months of handfeeding, baby macaws will vary in weight, but they should not loose more than 10-15% of their body weight. any more weight loss than that, and you must handfeed him more often. you cannot push her into weaning by not giving her formula, i think its pretty cruel to make your baby stay hungry. you have to learn to go with your baby's flow, she will let you know exactly how much she needs to be handfed, if you just watch her body language. when our babies reach about 4-6 months, they can, and will, bob their heads slowly and fluff up their head feathers both when they want attention, and when they are hungry. try showing your baby the feeding syringe. if shes really hungry, she will go crazy over it, lunging towards it and trying to grab onto it while wildly bobbing her head. if she just wants attention, she might grab onto the syringe, but she wont act like shes starving to death. this should give you an idea to try, i call it the "syringe test". when my babies just want attention, i will stick the tip of the syringe in their beaks, but they will just kinda lick it a little bit and then push it out of their beaks (they will bob ther heads slowly while poofing up their head feathers). but when mine really want food, they will start bobbing their heads very hungrily and quickly while holding onto the syringe. thats how i usually tell whether my babies want attention or food. it works really well for all species of macaws that we have raised.

your baby will slowly prefer to eat food on its own. but while you are still handfeeding her, you should just play with her a little bit every time you take her out of the cage, with her food. try to get her interested in food by sticking various little pieces of food in her beak to try. it seems like you are doing the right thing by giving her all kinds of food, keep doing it :) at around 4 months of age, they should already start chewing on the chunks of food, so you shouldnt have any problems. but, at 4 months, most of my baby macaws are still on 3 feedings a day. i always think its better to feed them more than to not feed them enough. also, where ever she goes, you should always make sure that a bowl of food follows her, whether it be with you, on the playstand, in the cage, everywhere. even in her cage, you should put her food bowl in its normal place, but also try putting another bowl right next to her favorite toy or perch. "surrounding" her with food will only encourage her to eat on her own.

anyway, ive raise several macaw babies, and i love them all to death. they take forever to wean, but thye are so much fun :) i hope i didnt offend you, i wasnt by any means trying to, but it always upsets me when someone sells an unweaned baby to someone who doesnt know how to handfeed. i wish you were close, i would love to show you how to handfeed. if you have any questions and need a quick answer, you can always ask me. i like to keep track of how other people's babies are doing, lol. if you want i can pm you my personal email which i always check :) good luck and keep us updated :)

[U2Boo]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!! I really appreciate all the help!!!!!

[U2Boo]

Birdsandreps

Thanks for the info, it really makes me feel a lot better to know that feeding my bird 3 times a day is ok and that she may still be handfeeding for another 2 to 4 months! The people at the pet store did show me how to hand feed and had me come in a few times to do it so I could get a little experience before I took her home. But the feeding were often between 80 and 120cc because she was starving. There was other macaws at the store but they were eating on their own and only taking one feeding and not going crazy at the sight of the syringe, but my bird did and infact she got so crazy at the sight that she jumped off her perch at the store onto me flapping like crazy and bobbing trying to get to the syringe in my hand, she was SO hungry it made it difficult to feed her! Now that she is getting 3 feeding a day starting in the moring, not at 1 in the afternoon she is a lot more calm she doesn't cry all day and she can spend her time doing other things besides worring about when she is going to get fed next like at the bird store. Once in a while they would feed her at 11 (they told me) because she would just cry and cry and cry until she got fed.
I'm convinced that she wasn't eating on her own at all by the time I took her home with me. But I know she is at least trying some of the food I offer now since I can see the changes in her poop. Up until a few days ago it was formula in and formula out!
I do have a gram scale but it is hard to weigh her since she doesn't hold still and leans foward in attempts to get down off the little perch. When she does that the scale will have values anywhere from 889 to 950 so its really hard to judge where she is exactly or if she is loosing or gaining weight. I'm working on finding out if I can distract her with something like a small pice of wood she can stand there and chew. (I will weigh the wood first so it won't affect the values) but I haven't had any luck yet.
Thanks again for the info and I will keep you posted and please if you think of anything else to ad just let me know! I wan't offended by your post at all and I feel the same way, I don't think that unweaned birds should be sold eather. I wanted a weaned bird and didn't understand what "supplimental" feeding were until it was to late.

[birdsnreps]

see, thats really sad that she had to cry and cry all morning for them to feed her :( i think its cruel to do that to any bird, especially a baby that doesnt know how to eat on his own :( i hope she doesnt have too many stress bars from them not feeding her. and its a big relief for you to say that they at least showed you how to do it!! macaws arent always the easiest babies to feed, but they dont really get too difficult until they start to refuse the formula.

you giving her diff food is the best thing you can do for her right now, just keep on doing it, and little by little, she will refuse the formula. when she gets into the 5-6 month range (maybe even in her 4th month), the amounts of formula that she eats at each feeding, and each day, will start to vary, sometimes alot. sometimes our babies will only eat one full feeding, sometimes they will eat two or three smaller feedings, it just depends on what the baby feels like doing. dont worry about it unless she drops lots of weight, its normal for them to do this. always keep an eye on how much she is eating on her own, and keep an eye on her poop too, her poop will tell you how much she is eating. baby macaws that eat well will have huge, nasty, moist poops, lol.

lemme think....oh, another thing, has she learned how to fly yet?? shes about that age :) when they start to fly, they will also loose some interest in their formula, its normal for them to refuse a little bit while they are learning. let her learn to be an expert flier before you clip her. she should learn how to take off and land gracefully, not flying into doors and windows, lol. im sure you know what a good flier looks like, lol. yet another thing to think about, when you let her out of the cage to fly, dont handfeed her before you let her loose, if she has a bad crash, the impact could make her regurgitate some formula, and she could breathe it in and aspirate (get formula down her trachea instead of down her esophagus) herself, so just be careful. handfeed her after she settles down, or right before you put her back in the cage. i have to do this with the gw im feeding right now cause if i feed him, then let him out, he regurgitates a little bit sometimes if he gets startled or lands wrong, lol.

also, if you have her lay on her back for you, try not to do this right after she handfeeds, she could spit some up and have it go down the wrong pipe, lol. while we are talking about clipping of wings and aspiration, if you decide to clip her wings yourself, do it before you handfeed, lol. birds hate to be restrained, and if you towel her after you handfeed, she will squirm and most likely spit formula up and breathe it down. anyway, i guess my point is, handfeed when shes calm so you wont have any aspiration worries :)

btw....you have any pics of her?? i would love to see her :)

[U2Boo]

Thanks again, I would LOVE to teach her how to fly but she was already clipped by the time she got to the bird store....:( They keep their birds out on pirches all day so they clip them so they won't fly around the store. But since she has been flapping her wings a lot lately I hold her feet with my thumb and kind of slowly bounce her up and down so she will flap more. She seems to like it.
About asperation, I totally understand the dangers in that. That is part of why she spends an hour on her feeding perch with me in the kitchen after each hand feeding. I feed her and put her back right away once and she climbed right up to the top of her cage and was hanging by her feet :) No more of that!!
Ya, it is sad that they let her cry for so long, it was even sadder that one of the employees told me to ignore the crying. She pointed out a GW to me that was 6 months old and it had been crying for some time, she said that it hadn't been given a hand feeding in over a month and was still begging. Very sad! She does have a few stress bars on her tail feathers that I can see I haven't really checked all her feathers but there is nothing on the out side of the wings.
I'll try to get some pictures posted so you can see her!! In the pictures you can see the stress lines......I did ask about them at the bird store and they told me that she was tested for bacterial infections and came back clean and that sometimes something as little as a change in the temperature in the nursery will cause stress lines in the feathers.....
And the saddest part of all is that this is a highly respected bird store in my area!