My Scrawny Severe

[Cosmo]

I recently (6 days ago) purchased a Severe Macaw. He was thin the day I took him home, but I really didn't realize how thin. He weighed 322 grams at the vet today, and you can seriously feel every bone in his body. He was on one handfeeding a day. He was hatched 8/21/06. He picks at pellets and seeds and so forth, but really doesn't seem to ingest them. He seems to drop most everything. He was eating his one time a day formula well, up to about 80cc's with the breeder. I read that 80 is an awful lot in one sitting, so I split it up into two. He was fine with the intake (ranging 60 to 80) until about two days ago. Yesterday, he would only take about 20cc's in one sitting. Today, he took 20 the first time, 15 the next, and 40 on the third. I purchased Macaw formula with higher fat for him, and I took him to the vet today. The vet was concerned with how thin he is and told me I should take him back to the breeder to let her put some weight on him and finish weaning him. I've offered him exerything from pellets, seeds, nuts, monkey biscuits, weaning pellets, veggies, fruit, organic animal crackers... you name it. He will pick at stuff a bit, but really doesn't seem to ingest anything but the formula he takes. I have also tried to make eating a social deal... or to carry on when he does pick at his food.

Does anyone have advice? I am really about in tears at this point.

[The Outlaw]

I totally agree with the vet. Frankly, trying to handfeed without years of experience is always dicey. However, I feel that there is something more going on here. Is this an avian vet? What kinds of tests did he run?

[Cosmo]

The Vet clinic is the more known "bird hospital" in the area. Opinions on them are conflicting, but the local bird store recommended them. They ran the Gram Stain Cytology, which didn't show anything odd. The vet looked him over, weighed him and then said they would put it back on the breeder. I am worried for several reasons... one, I love the bird already. Also, there is the fact that I just spent a lot of money on a bird who doesn't seem to be thriving. The receipt said that birds were in good health, and there are no guarantees on unweaned birds. I did call the breeder today. She said she would come get him if he didn't show improvement in eating tonight. The only thing he was interested in eating, other than the bit of formula, was a few Fruit Loops. I wouldn't normally give those to a bird, but the vet said get him to eat just about anything to put weight on (other than the obvious no-no's for birds). I also have put him in a tub for awhile, to let him not have to perch and eat (which is where he drops everything), to see if he would eat in there. (We were holding him previously with the Fruit Loops and offering many different foods/pellets. I read the signs of Macaw wasting disease, but I probably shouldn't freak myself out too soon. It seems the vet might have mentioned that, wouldn't it?

[Baby5566]

Because avian medicine is so new, they sometimes dont think of that and you have to ask for the test. Especially if your vet is not an avian specialist, they may overlook it or forget about it. So remember to just ask for the test. I agree with the vet though, take the bird back to the breeder and let him finish weaning, see how he does.

[The Outlaw]

PDD (wasting disease) can't be determined by any known test other than a crop biopsy.

Let your breeder finish handfeeding the bird. Something is really wrong. You NEED a certified avian vet. Just because a vet sees birds doesn't necessarily mean that they are specifically trained to treat them. Its an extra 2 years of vet school and they learn a lot more.

Baby birds should be heavier up until they start to fledge. Even then, you shouldn't be feeling any bones.

My 6 year old Severe, Chi Chi, averages about 370 grams, has good breast meat and is well muscled. The weight alone isn't the indicator, but boniness sure is. Have you tried mashing up a cooked sweet potato and adding some peanut butter and orange juice? Sometimes, this will make even picky eaters eat. Use about a tsp of peanut butter (heaping) to 1/4 cup cooked sweet potato and the juice from 1/2 of a fresh orange. Offer it warm, about 105 degrees F. Make sure you don't microwave it, for you can produce hot spots and injure your baby. It should be about the consistancy of applesauce.

[Cosmo]

http://www.alohavet.com/

This is where I took him. I looked over the web page to see if they were avian certified. They are a Pet and Bird hospital, so I didn't know there was more to it. This is frustrating.

I made the sweet potato/peanut butter. He didn't go for it, but then he seems to have an issue with peanut butter. I put a little on bread, and he picked at the bread. Then my husband gave him a piece of papaya and mango... which Cosmo nibbled at. Whenever he "eats" at something, he seems to shred it, but I can't really tell if he is getting any down. He just rolls it between his lower beak and inner upper beak. He grinds his beak frequently, especially when he is tired. He has become nippier over the past two days, but most of the time he just wants to be held and rubbed.

I spoke with the breeder. She said that everything she is telling me is what she would do... but I told her I would just feel better with her experience over mine. I've hand raised a pigeon and a blue jay.. this seems a little more advanced than nursing abandoned birds.

[Cindy215]

Crystal, I know how upset you must be. It's extremely stressful. This is why experienced people HATE when they sell unweaned babies. It's even against the law in some states. Even with the one feeding, which I dont agree with, he should have been a hearty eater, eating a big list of things and an enthusiastic handfeeder at least the one meal per day at night. She also should have told you what food to feed not have you pick out your own handfeeding food.

You couldn't possibly have known all the variables and shame on that breeder for selling him, first of all, then EVEN FOR A MINUTE not RUNNING to your house when you called for help. I could be something serious or simple. She needed to come see. Like you feeding too cool, or too hot god forbid. Or too close together or on top of other food...alot of things.

Yes, sadly I have to agree she needs to take him and feed him.

As Kathy said they can backslide.

I know you're beating yourself up, dont. She didnt even tell you you had to have a scale that's like, number one.

When you said only ate a bit of formula....what do you mean? You didnt get any feeding response at all? The bobbing of his head? Or he stopped. What temperature have you been feeding?

He doesnt have a water bottle does he, he has a bowl and you see him drink, right?

THESE are things that breeder should have asked you. I hope the doctor reviewed it all with you.

Make her come over and take him no later than tomorrow. Have HER feed him in front of you if you want. Meanwhile you can find an certified avian vet. Take care.

Let her finish handfeeding him there's no way I would do it if I were you. It's more dangerous to him.

You scared me when you said he just wants to sit with you that's not normal. BUT then you said about beak grinding. If it's just at that time, he's tired they need to go to bed EARLY or at least when the grinding starts. But I understand you not doing it tonight, I'm just saying that may be one of the issues, what looks like lethargy is tired I hope. and shouldnt be going on all day long if he's getting good sleep. Take care.

[Cindy215]

Here's an interesting article. I dont know if she's right or wrong I havent handfed in 14 years and didnt have this problem BUT it illustrates how complicated it can be. Sounds like she's trying to say it's ok to sell babies to inexperienced people I dont know. I only skimmed it.

But it may make you feel better. Explaining how they regress during weaning. And if they are starving they actually wont eat sometimes. Very complicated stuff. This is why they want to unload the birds in the last stages since it's more tricky I guess.
http://www.cagenbird.com/weaning.htm

[Cosmo]

Cindy,

Thank you for your reply. Cosmo is pretty active during the day. He does take one nap during the day, but keeps going strong other than that.

The breeder did give me instructions on the formula temp and feeding, what to feed, how...etc. I just know I don't have as much experience. I have been feeding exact formula (1 part formula to 1 1/2 or 2 parts water) at 103 degrees (I made sure of the temp because I feared burning his crop. I followed the vet manual on the temp.) She also gave me the name of the pellets she used, I just bought a variety of things to try new things. She also called me later tonight to check up on him. I do think I would feel more comfortable with him being back in her hands. I don't think he was ready to go, as eager as I was to get him.

I did ask what his previous weight was, but she said she never weighed him. I don't know how old he was when she got him, but he wasn't hatched there.

The past two days, he seems eager for his formula. He bobs initially, but after about 20cc's, he just wants to climb on me. I did switch back to the original syringe this evening, which is when I got him to eat 40cc's. I think the flow on the bigger syringe was more than he was used to having. My question is this - at four months, should he be eating more on his own, or does that vary with the bird?

He has water in a bowl, and I have seen him drink when he's on his play perch. (This is because when I am home, he's on the play perch). Tonight I took him out of his cage (it is a 32" cage and seems just huge for him) and put him in a large, plastic tub. He has shredded newspaper in there, a bowl of mixed food offerings (seed and pellets), and a bowl of water. I hope it is nothing big... I am really terrified that he might die. We just lost a parakeet a few weeks ago, and you would have thought it was the end of everything. I cried for two days. (He was a really awesome little bird. We have another parakeet, who is doing fine).

The beak grinding does seem to be when he is falling asleep. This is later in the evening (after dark) and during his one naptime. Other than that, he is an active little bird. He is really testing his nipping boundaries over the past two days too!

I really appreciate all the help. Any advice is welcome!

[Cindy215]

Well I feel much better with you're saying about his activity. Yes thats what beak grinding is,,,they need to be in bed then on a normal day. I'll let Joel address the technicalities of the feeding. AND I"m not telling you to change anything because I dont want to cause any problems or influence you in the least...BUT one hypothetical is that the 103 is cooling too fast and it's not 103 when you feed it...my Military was scary as hell it had to be almost 105 when he was eating it. He'd just flat out stop bobbing if it cooled from the kitchen to the bird. So He started eating right next to me in the kitchen....JUST SAYIN...that could be as simple as that. Also if you lose your groove and its cool he'll just stop.

WELL, if the person was just a feeder not his breeder THEN that explains it. I'd call that a broker. RIDICULOUS that he's feeding and never weighed him HRMPH. Rushing him out the door. Now I'm conflicted LOL sending him back to somebody who doesnt care.

You cant go by me I"m dramatic lol. Maybe Joel will have some good advise. I see now why that person said they'd do the same thing as you...cuz they'd probably do even less....But they'd tube feed him quickly ....

If you have him tomorrow and feed, take him right in there with you, so he's closer ...CHECK AND TRIPLE CHECK FOR HOTSPOTS ITS VERY DANGEROUS if you're using a microwave....but feed him right away dont be walking all over with that syringe.

I dont know how to explain him not eating anything though of substance during the day. Sounds like he was really poorly weaned. to the one feeding. Get the vets or Joel's advise but if it were ME, I'd be wondering about starting over with a feeding in the am and one in the p.m. If he's not sick and it's a feeding/weaning problem I think that's easily solved with more feedings imo. My experience doesnt help with this, so hopefully others with this problem can help. JOEL???

I think it boils down to you either trusting this person and truthfully it could be all he needs, the feeder person geting him back on track ....it's never good to force wean but maybe he's trying....nobody can say from the internet... although I feel bad, too if he goes back. AND for HIM. But they will get the food in. OR you starting a whole new program. That's how I see it anyway.

How far from Miami are you?