Caught in a nasty mess with my female shepherd

[melodys]

Very sorry to read your story that is just heartbreaking to read as a GSD owner and lover. When she's attacked or shown aggressive behavior have you put her down on her side and held her there until she licks her lips? That is a method that is used to show dominance over the dog it works when introducing my female to a new puppy she was acting as he was prey and I had to do that several times maybe it can work with strangers or people coming to the house. Also was thinking in the meantime, can you instead of putting her down think about building an outside kennel that she cannot get out of to keep her in when people are visiting and bring her back into the house when its just family. I know you can get a decent sized one with roof for about 250.00 in PA. Myself iI couldnt do it, it was hard enough to say goobye when my two friends reached the age of 14.

I hope it all works out for you.

[magdalena]

Alpha rolling her might work if she is family friendly or it might get your face torn off if you are working with a red line fight drivey dog. If you were going to train her 'out of it' I'd do it outside with two handlers, two leads and a dominant dog collar and pulley system, introduce the 'stranger', correct when she attacks. Still she will be unpredictable it sounds like. Have you seen leerburg's working with dominant and aggressive dogs dvd JAG? I'd be happy to send mine down to you if you decide to keep her. You could also try the forums there if you haven't already.

[Jag]

Originally Posted by magdalena

Alpha rolling her might work if she is family friendly or it might get your face torn off if you are working with a red line fight drivey dog. If you were going to train her 'out of it' I'd do it outside with two handlers, two leads and a dominant dog collar and pulley system, introduce the 'stranger', correct when she attacks. Still she will be unpredictable it sounds like. Have you seen leerburg's working with dominant and aggressive dogs dvd JAG? I'd be happy to send mine down to you if you decide to keep her. You could also try the forums there if you haven't already.

Thanks, yes, I have. She's submissive to me. She's a hard dog that is soft to the handler. (If that handler is me). I have rolled her, I have completely dominated her. She is EXTREMELY unpredictable. I know there are a lot of badly bred dogs, but she is from German imports, I have the pink papers, I met the parents. They are KK1, Shutz.3. There is NOTHING in her bloodline to suggest that she'd have issues. A good number of their other dogs are SAR dogs. Both parents are on the large side.. but yes.. Kenya is fat. It used to be that she just had a 'big butt'... but she's become too large. Either way she's still on the large side even before she got fatter. She can't jump high..because of her weight. She used to get walked a lot (we have a large fenced back yard) but because of her aggressive behavior she doesn't get out as much. My male is a shining example of a working line GSD. They have some of the same ancestors way back. He is height and weight within range, smaller but fast...very drivey...LOVES to do bite work, but has a very strong head. Makes good decisions, praise driven. He doesn't 'bite first'... in fact he's never bitten anyone. For a beta male, he makes me wonder sometimes if he doesn't wish he was alpha.

If she wasn't unpredictable, I would think about it. If she didn't just bite another person for NO reason (there was no threat, and Kenya knew there were people in the house), if we didn't already do everything that people have suggested... then I would think that it was the wrong thing to do. I have a real issue with it, because she's such a baby in the house. However... I could lose my home, everything I have if either the girl she just bit or whoever else she may get ahold of were to sue me. I have tried to take a lot of precautions. They were crated in the laundry room (behind another door) for hours. They needed to eat and potty. We told the kids the dogs were out, and to stay put. **** happens. Unfortunately, the girl I got has a bad head. How on earth a German import can throw a pup with a bad head is beyond me. All I know is it happened, and I have to do something to protect others and ourselves from it. I have signs up all over. I have a muzzle. She has a pinch collar. I had her on a shock collar. I've tried to keep her out in public so I can correct the behavior. She reacts to the correction, but will obviously repeat when given the chance. I can NEVER trust her. I will answer more when I get home. It's a sickening prospect, but I'm trying to be realistic here...

[Monty In Ireland]

Put the dog to sleep before it seriously hurts someone.

no matter what training dogs with temperament issues always revert back to type ...dont take the risks, to many have before you have and someone else has had to pay for that mistake.

[magdalena]

What a hard call Jag, really feel for you in this situation. :( There doesn't seem to be any easy choice. She either has to be put down or live her life locked up.

[chapala]

As you have recognized, you are the owner of a dangerous dog, and that is a very difficult position. I can tell you have thought long and hard about what to do, and I respect whatever decision you make, provided it protects other people from the dog.

I too grew up with a GSD, and it's a wonderful breed. We now have two Malinois (one of the Belgian Shepherds), a GSD (very mild mannered), and an elderly Brittany - three are rescues. I have had dog aggressive dogs before, but never a people aggressive dog. Beyond the financial repercussions you would have in the event she attacked someone, is the harm to an innocent person. Especially since she has proven herself aggressive towards people, you could be accused of negligence if she does bite someone seriously in the future.

I don't envy your position, and wish the best to you.

[Jag]

This one I HAVE to answer piece by piece. First, I don't know what kind of dog trainer you are, or if you specialize in GSD's, working lines, show lines, or what. There is a HUGE difference between a lab who has not been corrected and a GSD with a weak head. The fact that you think that every dog can be rehabed doesn't sit well with me at all. There are genetic 'flaws' in some breeds. It's due to poor breeding, too much line breeding, and so on. GSD's in particular are bred too much by people that don't know what they are breeding and shouldn't be breeding ANYTHING. I went with an import specifically to try to avoid these pitfalls. The Germans do some things better than anyone... and one thing they do very well is regulate the GSD breeding industry. I don't know why, but for some reason you think I have a destructive hellbent bitch. I do not. She is in a regular large dog crate, has never gotten out and never tried to. I don't need Ft. Knox to keep her where I put her. In the house, with only the people who live here, she's extremely gentle. She has never looked at me as anyone other than the alpha. My male pushes those boundries often...but she does not. Once a GSD gets in what THEY consider a 'successful bite'... that's it. They have the confidence to repeat, and from that point on, it's an uphill battle. My bitch was right at one year old when she got her 'first bite' in. Still a puppy, but now with something that she shouldn't have had. I TOLD the woman who was petting her that I wasn't comfortable with her petting her. She brushed me off, saying she'd been around shepherds for many, many years and she knew them well. I told her again with more force that I did NOT want her petting her because she is an alpha female, and had the more 'stand offish' attitude of a German dog. She had been petting her on the head while Kenya sat in a totally relaxed position, tongue hanging out the side of her mouth panting.... not a bit of tension anywhere in her. Then this woman made a fatal error... or near fatal. It was as simple as she had her hand on her head (dominant) and then looked down at her and looked her in the eye (dominance). It took less than a second for Kenya to put her on the floor. I caught her before she finished her descent to the woman's neck. This is not a 'behavioral issue' that can be handled with training... I don't care if it's the dog whisperer himself. I knew at that moment that my dog had a weak head. I had taken her out MANY times to crowded areas, not so crowded areas... she's never shown any signs of aggression to that point. After, I went into 'intensive' training with her in aversion work. She was not to look at, move towards, or even acknowledge any person or animal. I thought it was going well. She did what I told her to. Until the next time she decided to lash out. There is no pattern. There are NO signs. I am not missing them, they simply aren't there. This is the case with some weak headed GSD's. There aren't any signs because they make the decision to attack very quickly. There's no rhyme or reason.

The very hint that you feel I'm not an extremely responsible dog owner can only speak to the fact that you feel that no matter the risk to the public, no matter the quality of life for the dog... it should be kept alive at all cost. I look at it from a truly responsible dog owner point of view... which is this. I learned about my breed before choosing. I learned about the problems that they may have. I spent a lot of time trying to work around her 'issues'... but the truly responsible thing to do is to recognize that there are some dogs with issues which cannot be fixed, and I have a responsibility not only to my dog, but to everyone that she may come into contact with. When looking at the restrictions needing to be imposed to keep those people safe.. what kind of quality of life will she have? My kids have been forced for three years to keep friends in the house down to next to never. They have accepted this in trade for keeping Kenya in our home. It's a big sacrifice, but everyone made it. Now she has bitten yet again. Not because the kids in the house didn't know about her... not because they didn't know where she was. It was because one kid 'forgot' (this is my oldest son's ex-girlfriend who is 17) that Kenya was out... she simply had to use the bathroom, and forgot to tell my son. She'd been in our house enough times.. she knew about Kenya for a long time. It wasn't HER responsibility, though. It was mine. The dogs needed to eat. They were 2 hours past feeding time. The announcement that they were coming out to eat and potty and get out of crates was made clear to everyone, with a reminder NOT to leave the room with them out.

I do not think it's fair to the dog to 'muzzle them at all times'. Think for a minute about the dog. First, if I had a dog that was SO inclined to attack someone that they needed to be muzzled even when crated I would have it put down immediately. Second, Kenya is MISERABLE when muzzled. It isn't natural for them to have something on their face, it restricts what they normally do to a HUGE degree...which is why I only use it when I take her out in public. Three, she is soft to the handler. She sulks if I look at her sideways. I would not subject a dog to being muzzled all the time. It's NOT a long term answer. Why on earth would I take a dog who has already bitten, attacks without warning 'through the house' when people are over?? When people are over, she is crated inside the laundry room, which also has a door. If she needs to go out of her crate for any reason, people are moved to a 'secure' location, told to stay there... and then I move her to where she needs to be. When she's returned to her crate and the door is shut, then the people are allowed to move from that location. Since we don't often have visitors, it's not a huge issue. However, I would not bring her out (whether on a leash or not) into a room where there are strangers present. This would serve no purpose. My visitors aren't hired help to try to train her, and it would be a futile thing to do... as she does not have predictable behaviors to begin with. What do you think my GSD would think if I had two leashes on her held by two people?? She would immediately think something was VERY wrong, and put her on a 'high alert'... simply put, it would be the WORST thing to do.... like telling her that I expect she is going to want to attack someone... there is a reason she SHOULD attack someone, therefore setting her up to be in that frame of mind right from the start.

Yes, I made a commitment to this dog. I also have a commitment to everyone she comes into contact with. She is as restricted as I ever want her to be... and yet still one mistake was still made, and the result was disasterous. Should I wait until someone is seriously injured to act? Until I am sued? Until she cannot be without a muzzle 24/7? What kind of life is that for her? I don't 'think' she doesn't give me signals... I KNOW she doesn't give any signals. There ARE dogs out there who give NONE before an attack. It's unusual, but they are out there. I am VERY in tune with my pack. If one of my dogs even begins to have an interested look at something I know it. I don't know how you can even make a statement like she has been giving signals all along when you've never laid eyes on her. Any good trainer wouldn't make such sweeping assumptions.

[Jag]

This is not a habit. Habits have trends, patterns that you can predict. I have a dog who follows no pattern at all. She will go for a year maybe with no attempted attacks, then suddenly attack. It's not just in my house, it's not just out of my house. It's not a particular gender, age, day, time, circumstance.... it's nothing at all. The most dangerous animals on earth are those that are unpredictable. I have raised her since she was about 12 weeks old. I have never given her any reason to think I was anything other than the alpha. Both my GSD's are trained in both vocal commands and hand signals. This isn't a snap decision, nor is it an easy one. Even knowing what needs to be done, it's still crushing and gives me pause. It's not fair. It's not fair to anyone. With all the precautions I've taken...nothing short of putting her down is going to make sure that no one is ever bitten by her again. She isn't my dog who goes to the door and barks when someone is there... that is my male. Yet he wouldn't bite anyone unless there was a real danger. He actually tackled Kenya once when after being with my mother in law 5 minutes earlier with NO issues, she started running towards her. She was on a chain, and my mother in law was (thankfully) out of reach. However, my male was much closer to her, and took her to the ground as well as took her muzzle into his mouth. The difference between them is night and day. Yet they were raised and trained by the same person, in the same way. Her parents I met face to face, watched them 'work', and met other grown previous litter mates. I saw myself the papers of their ratings. I paid a LOT of money for her. I worked with the person I got her from about a year after I got her.

I am still struggling with this... because she is the sweetest dog you'd never meet in the house with my family. I trust her implicitly with my children and wife. As I said, she is soft to the handler, even though she's a hard dog. She takes any reprimand straight to the heart, and pouts for a good long time if she disappoints. Why on earth would a dog like this behave as she does? Simple. A genetic flaw. A MAJOR one, but still genetic. She can't be re-trained, as there's nothing to train. She knows better. For some unknown reason, though, she still attacks without warning. I did not expect to find this dog that was chosen so carefully to have a too common GSD problem... which is a weak head. Yes, I am qualified to say it and to diagnose it in my dog. Yes, it has been discussed with certified behavioralist trainers, with breeders of German dogs and DDR's. It's something I have tried to work around for the last 3 years. I don't know how many more weeks, months, or years I can keep running the daily risk that she'll seriously hurt or kill someone. Yes, she is dear to my heart which is why I've tried so hard and put my family into making sacrifices to spare her life. However... I do believe that there comes a point when it becomes too much of a liability... and action must be taken. I don't know when I will take this action, as much as I know what needs to be done as it's tearing my heart apart just thinking about it. My precious Kenya was wanted for a long time. However, I know her. I mean I REALLY know her. What this monster is that lives inside this sweet girl I will never know. But I know it's there, and it scares me to know what she's capable of. Please take some time to further your education on dog training, especially if you're working with aggressive breeds. You're lacking in the knowledge of the difference between fear biters, sharp/shy dogs, red line dogs, dogs with weak nerves, and dogs with weak heads. Some can be worked with, other problems simply are a 'contain' issue, and are ALWAYS a real threat and danger. The most dangerous of all are the dogs who attack without warning.
My first love in life was a GSD. I consider them to be the 'only' dog. They are beyond intelligent, beyond loyal, and beyond honerable. They are one of the few dogs who can make decisions.... all on their own. However, they are largely over bred, bred by those who don't have a CLUE what they're doing, and now have a bad reputation from those who have bred dogs who didn't meet the standard. Both of my girl's parents met the standard, and she still drew the short stick with a weak head. I don't love her any less... I just am painfully aware of the danger she poses.

[Jag]

Originally Posted by magdalena

What a hard call Jag, really feel for you in this situation. :( There doesn't seem to be any easy choice. She either has to be put down or live her life locked up.

Thank you for your sane and reasonable insight. I don't look forward to either...

[Jag]

Originally Posted by chapala

As you have recognized, you are the owner of a dangerous dog, and that is a very difficult position. I can tell you have thought long and hard about what to do, and I respect whatever decision you make, provided it protects other people from the dog.

I too grew up with a GSD, and it's a wonderful breed. We now have two Malinois (one of the Belgian Shepherds), a GSD (very mild mannered), and an elderly Brittany - three are rescues. I have had dog aggressive dogs before, but never a people aggressive dog. Beyond the financial repercussions you would have in the event she attacked someone, is the harm to an innocent person. Especially since she has proven herself aggressive towards people, you could be accused of negligence if she does bite someone seriously in the future.

I don't envy your position, and wish the best to you.

Thank you. GSD's are unique both in nature and in 'problems'. This is part of the problem. Knowing you have a very dangerous dog and still not putting it down is a very dangerous road to travel. I've been doing it for 3 years now, and my first thought is always keeping seperation between her and other people.... whether by space or muzzle. The thought of taking her life is killing me... but the thought of her taking another's life or doing serious harm would hurt me all the more. No, no easy decision.