Caught in a nasty mess with my female shepherd

[Jag]

I have always loved shepherds. Wanted one since I was a kid. I finally got one about 11 years ago... Gunner. He was an alpha male (boy did I know NOTHING) who accidently became unsocialized when I bought a house that was 'outside of town'. The kids who were always coming around and in and out of the house stopped. It was a new subdivision... most of it empty. Anyway, when I realized that this guy was downright dangerous at times, I took him to a training facility for problem dogs. He nearly starved himself to death, and I nearly had to come get him and scrap it because of it. He was in a muzzle for a month. He tore apart kennels that weren't supposed to be able to be destroyed. After 2 plus months (and over a thousand dollars) I went to pick him up. Here he was laying in the middle of the office on a dog bed, not moving and barely even acknowledging that anyone had come through the door. We got a couple hourse of 'training' with other dogs, what he'd been taught, and what to do in different situations. He'd been trained with a shock collar, which they didn't feel was necessary. However, the prong was to stay. A little more background... he became increasingly violent as my ex became increasingly violent towards me. This dog thought he was my bodyguard. Long story short, my ex got ahold of him, and had him put down at the redneck shelter in the area. He was two and a half, and in perfect health. He was my best (and only) friend. Heartbroken doesn't begin to cover it. He was microchipped in my name, but they never bothered to scan him. The whole divorce went like that... just the nastiest stuff you could imagine.

I got another shepherd in 2003, right as we were moving to Ohio. I knew that this guy would end up looking like Gunner by his parents and the color he had at that point. I carefully put away the Alpha and Omega from that litter. I chose my new boy... and named him Gunner's Pheonix. Gunner really is a lot like my first Gunner. My religion tells me his is my Gunner... come back to me. He's such a great dog...so smart...a working line German line dog. So later I wanted to breed maybe. I looked through a lot of lines, breeders, etc. I found a female (Kenya) who is now 4.

Only problem is that even though I tried to keep Gunner from picking on her, he still did. She was an alpha female, so I thought it would be OK. Well, she's a huge love bug with everyone in the house. However, she HATES strangers. Family or not... she can't deal. Just before she was a year old, I took her to an old vet for a rabies injection. The guy was a retired MP who was in a canine unit. He said he'd had shepherds his whole life. His elderly wife insisted on petting Kenya, even though I said 'no' several times. I just didn't trust her. She was nervous. Surprisingly, she sat there while the woman patted her on the head. Problem came when the woman not only was patting her head, but looked down on Kenya, and made eye contact. To my female, this was a challage for the alpha position. Before there was time to blink, she'd grabbed this woman's shirt and pulled her to the ground. She was going down to bite at her throat when I had time to react. I strung her by her pinch collar. I was shaking with pure adrenaline...seeing all the awful things that could have just happened going through my mind. I nearly put her down that day.
I talked to a breeder I'd had contact with... she said that Kenya would see that as a 'good bite' and would be prone to bite again. Since then, I have been EXTREMELY careful about her. Who she's around, etc. It's very stressful. My oldest son had friends over this weekend. The dogs had to come out of their crates to eat and potty. There is a baby gate between the rest of the house and the family room downstair where the kids were. They were all aware of Kenya, and that she was out. One of the girls (for whatever reason) decided to come upstairs without telling anyone to use the bathroom. Kenya reacted so fast.. she ended up biting the girl on the leg, causing 2 puncture marks. She is 17. She was appologizing, but I said right there.... OK I think it's time to put Kenya down. I hate to do it. She's the sweetest thing ever with family. However, she's a menace to everyone else. Can't have people in the house without freaking out about keeping her contained. Camping is another nightmare. She doesn't bark or give any warning she's going to attack. She has a weak head. This is why I got my dogs fixed very soon after she took down the vet's wife. NOT what I wanted to breed. This dog was SO expensive.... the baby of two German imports. However... her head isn't right. When they attack at that young of an age, there's no behavioral training that can help. They are wired bad. End of story. My kids are devestated over the thought of her being put down. I'm not thrilled with it, either. However, with all the crating, training, and aversion training I've done with her... she's obviously going to do what she wants. I'm so torn...but she is a terrible liability... and I'm afraid she will end up doing even more serious harm. I know that it's not all her fault, but I can't afford to be sued when I have known for some time she's a danger. I just thought maybe we could get by without her biting again. I guess I was wrong.

[mmr]

you are correct in that she is a HUGE liabitlity. Myself haveing a rottweiler and a doberman I understand especially with these dogs being on the top 5 list of "ferocious" dogs. ALthough mine are sweet as pie! I raised them at a very young age and had and still have VERY strict rules. The fact that you have had 2 from completely different litters but act the same is odd. Did I read it right that you had BOTH of them together at the same time? Answer this question and I can continue!

[magdalena]

Weak nerves can't be trained out of a dog. I'm sorry to read this but I think you're probably doing the best thing. You already got her fixed which is great, the only other solution might be trying to find a protection sports trainer to take her.

[asulli]

So sorry Jag. I myself have a German Shepherd and I know how bonded we are. I will pray you have the courage and support you need to do whatever it is that you decide is best.

[mmr]

Have you tried a behavioral specialist with her yet? Not like the one you took your male to, but someone that evaluates them?

[tracie]

I have two big dogs and I truly understand the liability involved. It does cause alot of stress, but it comes with the territory of dog ownership and especially with large dogs. I have a hard time giving up on an animal, and I truly think it is something you can work through, but usually we are missing something that is triggering them to do this behavior. I hope there is a trainer around you that can work with her, but I honestly dont' think you need to train them with aggression, mistreatment or breaking their will like it sounds to me your first dog went through. I apologize if I misunderstood your posting but that is what I understood from it. They are extremely intelligent and as much as we bond with them and think of them as babies they just aren't hardwired that way. It is so important to look at things from their point of view and how the breed and dogs in general are hardwired to get to the root of the problem. Sometimes, and it sounds like the case here, even with training it will take absolute vigilence, but I hate to see her get put down for simply protecting her family. I do however, understand the liability and trust your judgement of the dog. They just always give us 100% and I have a hard time not giving that back.

[Jag]

My first Gunner was killed by my ex. He was NOT from the same litter as my current male. My male has a very strong head. He even tackled Kenya when she went after my mom in law at a campground. I got Kenya when Gunner was nearly 2. I have worked with Kenya for a long time. She has a weak head. Even breeding the 'best' in German dogs, it's possible to throw a weak headed shepherd. I tried to get her involved in Schutzhund. She wanted nothing to do with it. My male enjoyed it.

Protecting family is one thing. There must be a threat. Unless there is a clear and present threat, there is NO reason for an attack. She doesn't bark, she doesn't growl. She attacks. She knew there were people in the house, and laid up here totally ignoring them...until she heard someone come through the baby gate. Her attacks are untraceable. This is WAY beyond behavior modification. As I said, I looked into this extensively, and there is no way to fix a weak head. She makes bad decisions. We decided before that because she was such a sweetie in the house and with us that we'd just keep her away from visitors, etc. You have to understand that the kids aren't allowed to bring anyone in the house except on a rare occassion.... and this is because of Kenya. I have worked with dogs/training since I was a kid.

I've done more research on dog training, rehabilitation, and keeping aggressive dogs than I care to think about. She could not even be 'broken' as was the extreme case in my first male. It was either go that route, or put him down... as at that time he'd become very very dangerous. I did not rank over him in his mind. This is what kills me. Kenya in every way sees me as alpha. Until she feels that a stranger is trying to get above her in rank....or she decides for some other hair-brained reason to bite someone. I will not put her through the re-training I put the first dog through.

Thanks for the support... I really don't need training info. My only issue is do I continue to take a chance every day that I'm going to get sued and someone will get hurt badly or killed for no reason, or do I put her down...because it's a genetic flaw causing the issue with my female.

[asulli]

Jag,
This is a question that only you can answer. It would be so hard for a person who is not in your shoes to make the decision. My other concern if I were in your shoes would be would she ever turn on the family members thinking they are someone. Also, you might want to take into consideration that if she does bite someone and they turn her in that choice will no longer be yours. I wish I could say the right things. Sorry.

[mmr]

Please take this without hurt feelings, but coming from someone with aggressive dog experienc:

Originally Posted by Jag

This is WAY beyond behavior modification. .

I have to disagree. Have you have her evaluated by a behavioralist?

Originally Posted by Jag

She makes bad decisions. We decided before that because she was such a sweetie in the house and with us that we'd just keep her away from visitors, etc. .

dogs don't make decisions. They are capable of making rational decisions. They go with what they know and learn from the pack Keeping her away from strangers isn't helping her to learn to be social. Dogs need to be socialized from day 1. Even taking them out in the car to the store, to parks around others.

Originally Posted by Jag

I really don't need training info.

I think you both need training. It will just take a lot of work and a really good behavioralist!

Not being there to see it , but from what you are saying I would have her evaluated first before making any snappy decisions. Also if you know you are taking her to the vet or you have company over it is your responsibility as a "good" dog owner to put a muzzle on her as you know her history! Have you tried a shock collar? You can use them in a positive way and not just all about pain. It is about behavior modification. When you say weak head, is that your oppinion? Or has she been officially diagnosed with mental issues?

ALL animals give off some sort of signals before they attack/bite etc. Same as birds. What is her body language telling you before and after? Doe her ears go back, the hair on her back stand up, lip curling, very low growel, tail between her leggs? Like I said just as birds, dogs also give of pre signals for us to catch!

[mmr]

I suggest you check out these dog forums I am a member of! They are really great and many obedience trainers there etc!

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