should i get wings clipped?

[Cindy215]

Originally Posted by birdyland

I would love to. Simply not feasible.

First, I think there is no way to birdproff a house, beyond building/making an inside conservatory with attached outside aviary, and NEVER taking the bird outside, EVER, even in a harness. When I have the funds to do it right, I gladly will.

Second. A legally blind person is in residence in my home. No need to explain that one further, it presents a million problems to a flighted bird.

I'm sorry and don't mean to be argumentative but since they were my words I'll respond. There's a massive wingclip thread on another forum here you may want to read. It has about 600 posts last I looked.

YES it's possible to bird proof a house I've been doing it for over 20 years of my adult life. And to tell you the truth it wasnt even necessary very much. The doors, the fans, a couple locks, no big deal.

No aviary or conservatory. I even had fully flighted B&G and Military flighted right in my pet store. No problems. Uncaged. The only problem I had was from customers trying to harrass them. Or have thier 18 month old babies touch them.

As have every single person in my circle. If you don't know how or want to, that's ok. It is a transition. But making the "no way" statement should only apply to your intentions not what is possible or not. No offense.

Now if you want to say people get birds that are too big and they don't have room for them in their homes, I may agree with you 100%. OR People get birds then dont have time for them, I'd agree with that too. But I dont see clipping as any benefit in either situation. All the clipped birds I have ever known are MUCH better behaved than the unclipped.

Please don't assume it's a free for all in a flighted house, it's anything but.

[ParrotJoe]

So what are the kinds of things you can to do birdproof a house?

[Grillis]

Originally Posted by kristy29

When you say that it is possible to bird proof your home, how do you bird proof your walls? The major problem I have with my birds is when they fly into a wall, I am afraid they are going to get hurt. And no, I need my walls, otherwise I would live outside. They also fly into the windows, and I know that curtains will help that, but I am trying to sell my house and I am going to move soon, so I am not going to spend a lot of money on curtains that I am only going to use for a couple of months. I will buy darker curtains in my new home.

do u mean that you wingclipp you birds?
You can put up post its on the windows and they will understand that they cant fly through it. And they wont keep flying into walls, they learn.

As I have said in other threads about this. If you cant provide a safe environment for your bird you shouldnt have a bird at all. You should be able to all ways keep one eye on your bird, knowing what it is doing when it is outside the cage. I would never leave my birds alone in a room. And I would never take away from them the joy of flapping around.

[The Outlaw]

I just checked your profile and I see we are dealing with a young adult. When you own your own home and decide how things will be arranged, you will soon understand that just having a big cage is not enough. It will take a lot more. Your birds will not be your number one priority when you have to put food on the table. Your responsibility to them will be to love them and care for them the best you can. If it requires a wing clip to accomplish that, it will make perfect sense.

You are young and our cultures are apparently very different. That having been said, there are easily more parrots, especially large parrots, kept as pet in the United States than probably anywhere else in the world. Our laws and customs are based on living conditions here, not in Sweden. I'm sure you do a wonderful job. So do we.

[Cindy215]

Originally Posted by ParrotJoe

So what are the kinds of things you can to do birdproof a house?

I dont know if you mean the actual flying AND the house or just the house being birdproofed in general for all birds.

Here's my opinion on the house stuff. I'll post a second answer on actual flying or learning to fly.

BIRDPROOFING THE HOUSE: (THis goes for flight or not and assumes people there will want to cooperate)

Assuming you dont have a bird room and your birds are in, say the living room most of the time...

Make a list of basic rules. Like the bird is ALWAYS in the cage when you open the door to the outside. ALWAYS even for taking out the trash.

Put a lock on the door that you slide back and forth. Make it EYE LEVEL or higher if you have kids so they cant reach it. It's ALWAYS LOCKED. One time a total stranger walked into my house thinking it was a different person's place. LOL.

If you are forgetful put a big red sign on the door with the bird's picture. Write "Piper's Safety Lock" or something on the sign. With an arrow pointing to the lock. CHANGE the color of the sign so you dont get used to seeing it month after month and get lazy.

Empty all the trashcans religiously or get the ones with lids.

Never keep cutlery or anything in the sink.

Never keep a washbasin of water in the sink.

Obviously dont burn candles or smoke or have ashtrays around.

Same with plants. I dont have any now except aloe.

Have a rule that you will never do dishes with the bird out. I know of a parrotlett who died after falling in the sink full of dishes and she cut off her mandible. very sad.

Have a rule that you'll never cook with the bird out. This includes slicing up salad or fruit if you cant keep the knife from stabbing the bird lol. I put mine directly into the dishwasher with my eyes on the birds if I'm doing something fast but usually I never cut anything with them out.

Close the bathroom doors religiously and if you have that problem find the toilet lids that automatically close lol. Put a sign up. This one seems to be particularly problematic.

Put locks on your CAGES. It seems some strangers or family members do things like decide to let YOUR bird OUT when they visit (not YOU...others I mean).If your birds are capable they will open their own cages anyway. So get stainless steel bird cage locks.

Get in the habit of always looking at what your bird is doing especially when you enter or leave the room. Big eyes just like if it's a toddler. But THIS toddler can be stepped on. It's happened. Get big eyes.You can also prevent injuries like the bird getting a nail stuck and you dont see it if you're aware of what they are doing.

Ceiling fans, omg. TAKE THE CHAIN OFF. Lock it in a wallet. Make the most anal person in charge of ceiling fans. Cover the wall thing if you have a fan that operates on a switch. Cover it with cardboard taped to the switch. If you cannot stop using the fan, lock the bird in a bedroom then.This one seems to be particularly bothersome to people. I use the air conditioner when it is over 90 degrees. On low. I dont think they are great for birds.

**People will say "I want the bird with me I'm not locking it in the bedroom. I say, well then sacrifice your stupid ceiling fan lol. WHY should the bird's whole body and brain be sacrificed for YOU so you can entertain yourself with their life. You should at least be willing to give up the stupid fan, not make them give up their whole selves. Just stick them in the bedroom!"***

Electric cords put in those things that cover them like tubing. I've used a metal curtain rod to encase a wire or two. Or the clear plastic things they sell to put on drywall corners to keep them from getting bumped. This isnt an issue for me but is for other people.

Mirrors - put a plant or lamp in front. Always reflect something not the outside or a big ole white wall. Introduce them to the mirror so they understand it. Take them over to a perch or the lamp or something in front and let them see it. Dont just let them find it by accident. More about that on my second answer.

Or just cover it at first. Same with windows even if you just put a couple sheers in front. Or decals.

Chewing - give them stuff to chew. Even their own bookcase with stuff to shred. If they are chewing wierd things like the popcorn ceiling they are bored or something. I say invest the time to teach them how to play with real stuff. Like foraging even home made toys.

Give them a destination not just wandering around aimlessly. A plant or playstand or perches or boings around to fly or climb TO. Make them want what you have by making a big fuss over it. Like how much you love this boing etc etc.

***Be MORE determined than them. You are bigger. LOL ***I have a parrotlet who loved to fly to the top of the window where you lock it. She found the TINY weatherstripping thing in between the two windows. ALL the toys she has but that was her deal. I swear she thought she was going to chew out. But they love chewing stuff till it's "disconnected" anyway. After a week of me nicely having her step onto a small perch and going somewhere else EVERY SINGLE TIME, she stopped. I hung a boing in front of the window, too with toys.

Lastly, you need a bond with the bird. And a routine that you stick to . This is the best birdproofing imo. Just a simple bath can take up about an hour or so of their day. And it's a good thing.

They will do what you want with direction but not if you dont invest the time in them. And a bond wont prevent escapes just like with 2 year olds wandering around the neighborhood in diapers. That's our ultimate responsibility. Nobody ever said living with birds for 50 year lifespans and high iq's was easy. (sorry I'm not saying YOU , just in general...)

This is all I can think of for now, hope it helps.

[Cindy215]

QUOTE=ParrotJoe;300282]So what are the kinds of things you can to do birdproof a house?[/QUOTE]

Here are my thoughts about birdproofing the actual bird lol. Bonding is number one and sometimes only TIME will help so dont rush things. Everything below assumes you're building a bond, if you dont have one already. Offering food by hand, talking to them calmly no chaos in the house etc. I also play soft music a scared bird doesnt like silence it makes them think there are predators around since that's what they're wired to do in nature.

FLYING:

Well having feathers wont help them fly without learning. It's not easy to fly if they never have. Or if they've lost previous skills. They have to judge distance, speed, learn to hover, make a u-turn, understand the human things like mirrors and windows, like hand eye coordination to us...etc etc, So if you have someone who needs to learn, you have to take precautions just to learn to fly. The same precautions you need to take if you have a clipped individual too, for alot of it.

To me it depends on the bird and the house. Meaning what stage the bird is in. If the house is busy and members cant work with a bird there, then these things may not help.

Young and growing out wings:

Let's say you get a young clipped bird ,,.

FIRST they need to acclimate. And bond to their cage. And me. And the house. And not be scared by kids or animals. (I have neither). The cage is always with the back to the wall in a corner. They feel safer. I cover it 3/4 on the back like a canopy too at first. That in itself is a big thing with variable times. I would never just open the door till I felt they were ready.

When they are learning that they cant fly (seems wierd but they still try even though they cant)...say in a 4 month old previously clipped bird, I lower the cage closer to the ground, (say, on an Ikea desk with wheels)...put pillows around the cage and hang a sheet away from the closest wall so when they might have mistakenly bumped the wall they bumped the sheet (or whatever weight you need) and didnt get hurt. None of this has anything to do with FLYING it's a problem of being clipped and wanting to fly. Remember they cant fly UP so they are only going to try and jump off the cage and may knock into the lower third of the wall. a cardboard or poster board would work too. Like a little screen. They can still break a blood feather though.

As they gain more feathers and can glide or whatever, they develop skills. I have perches in the cage that they can jump to in levels and those jumps become little flights. Empty in the middle to allow for wings and open space. For a small bird, the cage is 32 w x 21 d x 36 high but NOT when they fall like rocks. Later on. As the weeks pass they figure out what they can do.

I also encourage them to come to me, even taking a 6 inch flight. Even a HOP lol. Instead of just holding them on my lap all the time like a dog for no reason. I stick them next to me. Maybe on a little playpen or with toys or food or whatever. I take the item and put it on me and they climb. This is not usually a problem lol. Then they fly off usually when they get bored. That's a 12 inch flight so it's a start.

Like me on the sofa and them two cushions away. Or from the sofa back, or on a bed, taking a baby fly to/from my shoulder. Or sit on my head and fly off onto the sofa or bed. Anything to get them to understand their bird bodies and use them. AND use their brains to figure stuff out. I have a boing hung over the sofa they can climb on and fall safely to the sofa, for example.

Incrementally they develop skills and there is no drama. The only drama is taking in a bird with feathers who CANT fly. Or are stressed and freak out. Then you get the accidents, imo.

When they are new to my house and flighted:

In this case the acclimation time is even more important like above.

I let them come out on their own when they are comfortable in the house not just open the door the first week and let them freak out flying around aimlessly. This can take a week or more. They need to understand their cage, me, the house, and bond to everything. So they "want" to go back in their cage. Usually when they seem less nervous and acknowledge me. That part is hard to describe

I start opening the door in a bedroom that is safe. . This bedroom is minimalist with just a bed and 2 pieces of furniture and two lamps on end tables.

I cover the mirror or walk them around and introduce them to the mirror. (I have one). I put a lamp in front of the mirror so they can land on it. Or a plant. I make sure that the mirror reflects something not the outside or a white wall. Nobody has ever crashed the mirror.

Same with windows but in fairness my windows have the metal dividers in them so they see it. OR mini blinds opened.

Usually they will climb out and climb to the top of the cage. I have perches extending out the open door that I've clipped safely open. And booda ropes on the top. With some millet and water. A toy or two.

Then I let them sit there. Calmly and quietly talking no fast moves. They eventually either take a little flight or climb back into the cage. No panic attacks because they are used to things by then. Could be a week could be a month whatever the bird needs. Then eventually they learn that room and we move on to the next room.

Some people use a bathroom I don't.

I know people who have waited till midnight till a new bird finally decided to come down and sleep. Like from the top of a bookcase. This is why you do this stuff in a bedroom with no high wall units etc.

Take advantage of a natural daylight schedule All birds get ready for sleep at dusk if there are no artificial lights. They eat from about 2-4. Dont be letting all these exercises happen after that time. Ideally you'll have a bond with the bird at least beginning or at least with their cage.

If they fly up onto something, dim the lights a BIT, not dark then they cant see, and get them down into the cage. Offer a perch under the belly and say come, or whatever. IF you cant get them down, they will come down to eat or drink. So try and time it right and close them up for the night at the afternoon eating time. before 4 30 or so in the winter.

Every bird is an individual but they all have some things the same. Some cases are harder than others but I've found that one month is the magic time that they feel much more relaxed in a new home.

[Tiki]

Cindy, excellent and very thorough list of bird-proofing ideas!

Hey there Parrot Joe! Long time, no see! If you have a few hours to kill, check out the thread in the Bird Safety forum for a very lively discussion!

[birdyland]

Originally Posted by Cindy215

I'm sorry and don't mean to be argumentative but since they were my words I'll respond. There's a massive wingclip thread on another forum here you may want to read. It has about 600 posts last I looked.

YES it's possible to bird proof a house I've been doing it for over 20 years of my adult life. And to tell you the truth it wasnt even necessary very much. The doors, the fans, a couple locks, no big deal.

No aviary or conservatory. I even had fully flighted B&G and Military flighted right in my pet store. No problems. Uncaged. The only problem I had was from customers trying to harrass them. Or have thier 18 month old babies touch them.

As have every single person in my circle. If you don't know how or want to, that's ok. It is a transition. But making the "no way" statement should only apply to your intentions not what is possible or not. No offense.

Now if you want to say people get birds that are too big and they don't have room for them in their homes, I may agree with you 100%. OR People get birds then dont have time for them, I'd agree with that too. But I dont see clipping as any benefit in either situation. All the clipped birds I have ever known are MUCH better behaved than the unclipped.

Please don't assume it's a free for all in a flighted house, it's anything but.

I have read every single post and already responded in the other thread yesterday....

We simply agree to disagree. I don't CHOOSE NOT to birdproof, it is IMPOSSIBLE at this time. My stance is that it is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to birdproof a modern home... unless you live as a minimalist and are anti technology. Therefore, it is a false sense of security to have a "birdproof home" just as it is a false sense of security to have a "clipped bird" that of course, can still fly.

Because of the sight impaired member of my family, for me, it is not only almost impossible, it is TRUELY impossible to allow flighted birds safely in my home. Yet, anyone who has met my birds will tell you they are some of the happiest, and well cared for pets they've ever met. They are family members, and I gladly spoil them. I have no doubt, that if they were flighted, they would NOT be safe. Not a matter of IF, just WHEN. Most likely, it is the same circumstance for anyone that has children too.

I DO know how to birdproof. A facility built specifically for them, as I mentioned earlier. "The doors, the fans, a couple locks, no big deal. " ... in my mind, and especially in our situation, just doesn't cut it. Again, in my particular situation, it wouldn't even be possible to impliment some of the suggestions and necessities.

I HAVE had flighted birds. It was amazing and fulfilling. Problem is, people are human and often make mistakes. I have recovered two clipped birds that flew off, almost immeadiately. Three flighted birds, in two situations, were lost to human error, other than my own, in a household that was "birdproofed" and rule oriented.... never to be seen again. One was lost when a COMPLETE STRANGER mistakenly opened the front door of a "birdproof" apartment, the bird flew straight out the door; there wasn't even a CHANCE to recall...he was gone. And no, this scenario is not so far fetched in a populated area. Could a sign have been posted on the door? Sure, the neighbor had a sign, for about a week before someone broke in and stole his bird.

Since you mentioned 20 years of success, I wish you continued success and especially luck. This is NOT a black and white issue, it has many many shades of grey. It is my belief that it is not as simple to "birdproof" as you make it sound, it takes a very dedicated household and regime, which you obviously have. To present the undertaking of keeping a flighted bird safe, in a modern home, as anything less than life changing and difficult.... to a person that is considering the task... will result in failure. They must be prepared for a big deal, because it IS. It is a big deal, each and every action of each and every day. Is clipping a guarantee? No, it's just a lot more likely to be successful in my opinion amongst the general public.

[Grillis]

I am astonished that your birds seems to fly away so often.
In sweden it is not that common for people to wingclip their birds and not that many birds have flown away so we would consider to mutilate them just for that reason. I have 5 budgies and none of my birds have ever flown away. And you all know how good a budgie is at flying.

[Ringneckmom]

Grillis - no birds are being "mutilated". Please quit being so combative with people you do not know anything about.