should i get wings clipped?

[hugochavez]

I've had my cockatiel for about three months now. I found him outside and at first he would not let anyone touch him without attacking. Now he perches on hands and shoulders without problems and when he is in a good mood will let you scratch his head forever with no problems. Sometimes though he is still so aggressive for no reason and will bite randomly. My girlfriend loves him but still is upset that he is bad sometimes and bites. Ive decided to really try and start training him with food treats and verbal commands now to try and make him a fully tamed bird. I was wondering though if i should get his wings clipped still, and if i do, how long will he be angry after getting them clipped?

[Monica]

Hard to say how long he'll be angry for after his wings are clipped. If he does just fine without his wings being clipped then I see no point. But if he's continuously flying off, flying when someone is cooking, or doors/windows are open when he's out then he might need to be clipped... Otherwise, if your house is bird proof enough, and he's not hard to handle/retrieve then I see no point.

[veryorignal]

As far as training its alot easier i have found with a bird thats clipped they have to reley on you for mostly everything which usually in turn helps the bonding just my experiance

[Monica]

I have one tiel, she used to be very wild. When she came to me, she was too weak to fly, so she got used to me handling her. Even though I never tried to tame her, she is now strong enough to fly and doesn't mind being handled. Yeah, sometimes she takes flight off around the room, but once she settles down it's easy to pick her up again and handle her.

Even though it does make handling easier with a clipped bird, if you can handle the bird pretty well without clipped wings then other than satefy I don't see a reason to clip.

[Cindy215]

Well wing clipping is controversial. I'm completely against it. A million reasons.

The strongest case for clipping says for safety and that people cant make the house bird - safe so just clip them. I say make the house safe.

Another case says they're acting "dominant" and it'll make them submissive. That's not scientifically accurate there are no dominant or alpha birds in the flocks. Yes you can see it in captivity being confusing because we're throwing all different types of bird together or seeing a bossy hen with her mate or mate aggression and call it dominance but that's not accurate. Yes there are cases of a captive group having bad or wierd dynamics.

It's because they are in unnatural conditions like small cages and nesting wierd or whatever. Like a male pushing a hen into a nestbox when she doesnt want to, or seeing another bird across the room and attacking the mate in the closed cage. All unnatural condtions and all being studied by people. You cant just say it's a simple case of dominance like people say with dogs.

Birds communicate alot of ways and one way is giving a nip to each other. There are alot of theories about that even doing a nip as a warning. You can read all about it if you want.

But here are my reasons to be anti clipping:

First, flying is the healthiest thing you can do. Maximizing her cardio and strength. Especially a Tiel prone to poor diets, weak genetics and common conditions like lipomas. Exercise is one thing always recommended for them.

I would never cut off something she was born with and that she was meant to function with physically and psycologically.

She could fall and get injured not understanding what happened. And it'll take some time to grow back those wings. It's happened.

I don't believe in forced bonding. It's not necessary. (like Kathy Bates in Misery lol). Your bird will be confident and healthy with flying and paranoid and insecure clipped, imo and ime. It's a greater gift to have her fly to you because she wants to be with you...than letting her sit in one spot and wait for you to remember to play with her. And making her "perform" on your terms. (not that you WOULD, just saying it's common).

She's a single bird with no other bird family,right? So you're (humans) her entire family. Without wings all she has to do is sit there and obscess because she has to climb or jump down and walk around to find you. At least with wings it gets her mind off it and she can zoom around investigate things and further develop her flight skills. I forget how old you said she was, sorry.

Another risk is physical or psycological in some types of birds after being clipped. There are theories about that. Contributing to feather destructive behavior birds. Or unknown feather problems.

It's not anger she'll show ...it's the psychological confusion and frustration of what happened, and I wouldnt blame her one bit. My opinionated ways make me say, let's not put a human face on it and say oh she'll be mad and get over it. We're changing her whole physical and psycological makeup cuz we're bigger and we can.

Clipping won't solve underlying issues in fact will make them worse. Perhaps she's not getting proper sleep. This is really what I think the problem is especially since you say she's unpredictable. Tiels are gentle and sweet, (not meaning magically hand tame)...albeit some are feisty especially breeding hens. Hopefully she isn't in any extended molt which would make her cranky and you'd lower the protein for that and examine her diet.

Try following a strict natural daylight schedule including dusk and dawn with no artificial lighting, tv, computer, lights flashing, music and human sound. In North America it's not breeding season and birds are getting ready to sleep -long nights and short days.

Before dusk turn the lights off and she'll grind her beak and get ready to sleep. Put her cage in a quiet mostly dark room then, it'll be about 15 minutes or so even 30 before actual dark. Then she'll wake up at dawn and need to eat within 30 minutes. No abruptly turning any lights off or on they have a sensor in the brain that regulates the metabolism. A bird not getting proper sleep is a cranky bird and most DONT get proper sleep, imo.

I'd also recommend not letting her snuggle or spend time in any nesty type spots. Not in your shirt or behind cushions etc. Nothing like that in the cage, no hiding UNDER things. Move her cage around to different and interesting spots, rotate toys and switch things up like reverse food and water etc. These are ways to inhibit breeding behavior and you maybe experiencing a precurser to that, and probably because of the thing about not following a natural daylight schedule.

I'd give her alot of nutritious food like dark leafy greens, veggies, fruits and lower the protein. Also for enrichment, make it interesting and playful. I'd also have her on a predictable schedule. A series of structured activities so she knows what her days will be like, more or less, like sleep, food, bath, preen, play, rest, play, more food, bed. And it would be good to have full spectrum lighting, to help metabolize her vitamins, calcium and D3. Filtered sun through glass windows doesnt work.

[Monica]

Cindy, you make some great points, however even clipping a bird doesn't remove their capability of flight completely, only temporarily until they go through a molt. One thing that is "common" (seen frequently) with anti-clippers, is that they think it's like comparing the clipping of the wings to removing a dogs two front legs. It's simply not so. Reason is, birds can always grow their flights back out! Now, for the idiots who actually remove one digit of a birds wing are just idiots.

Generally speaking, there isn't much harm that can come about by trimming a birds flights. Yes, it's healthy but it's also possible for them to get excersice in other forms. As for flock dominance being disregarded, I don't think so... I think that birds do have some form of pecking order, and they can shun members of the flock. I don't think there is any dominance in parrots like there are supposedly in a wolf pack, but still, there is some order, otherwise they break out in squabbles which is usually a bunch of screaming, flapping of the wings, and a lot of beak action towards others... And it is seen that males can and do fight over females, too.



For me, whether or not to clip depends on the birds themselves, as well as the situation. Right now, none of my birds are clipped, however my cherry head conure cannot fly, and I have a cockatiel who has one wing destroyed (she is a mutilator). Come spring, I may very well clip one of my tiels, and maybe even the mitred here. But for the most part, the majority of birds remain flighted.

[hugochavez]

Thank you for all the comments. I dont think that i will get the wings clipped because i wanted to leave them. My tiel is sweet and loving a lot of the times, it just sometimes she has some problems with nipping others. I am just going to try and work on her behavior a little more using treats. I do fully understand the feeling of having the tiel actually fly to you when calling it or when randomly walking by the cage. It feels good to know the tiel chose to come to you. Ive really been nervous though about my tiel and feather plucking. I really believe that she is plucking her own feathers out excessively. How many feathers should be on the cage floor after a couple of days, and are they molting right now? or do they not molt seasonally

[Monica]

A hard molt can look like mild plucking, but if there's actually plucking envolved then you will notice red skin around areas that are bare, and a lot of down feathers sticking out. Otherwise, if all you are seeing is a bunch of feathers, but no bare spots, I wouldn't really worry about it.

Either way though, daily bathes are a great help!

[Cindy215]

hugochavez, yes it's seasonal and she should be finished her molt if you are in North America. It ended in the fall getting ready for winter. The "schedule" is, breed in the spring, molt end of summer/early fall (not now). Then rest through winter getting ready for the next season.

Exception is if she is having her first partial molt around 5 months old. It's not as "complete" and lasts a shorter time. A molt would show you some feathers on the floor including the whole complete shaft where it was connected. Nothing shredded or partial. like if she were chewing on it or shredding it.

I never lived with a plucker for a long time but it's my understanding you'll see destructive signs on the actual feathers. Perhaps others could say if they actually extract the whole feather from the shaft and if it's misleading meaning it looks complete not shredded.

Does she have "allot" of pinfeathers? especially around the neck and head? Does it look like her feathers are unsettled not smooth, like sticking out or puffy or messy away from her body? They should be laying smooth and sleek this time of year.

I've heard people say its normal. That's because it's normal for THEIR birds but it's not. It's a misunderstanding.

You'd want her to have a little raised protein during that actual or baby molt time to feed those feathers which are protein. If she's been in a constant or off and on state of molt, or soft molt, since end of summer, that would mean she's getting too much protein and you'd want to lower it. And reevaluate her diet.

That's why I mentioned that in my previous post, it would make her uncomfortable and sensitive. Especially if you hit a pinfeather when touching her "the wrong way". And it's not healthy for them. Also stressful.

Give her baths or misting from above in the morning to help with this. Lower the protein this includes seed. Up the greens and veggies. Follow the strict natural daylight schedule, too like I suggested. If you cant exactly, you can fake it with black out drapes found at stores like Linen N Things.

I had my 2 of my birds stay somewhere when I went away for 5 days and when I came back, one started having pinfeathers in just that short time. The other was younger and didnt have that. I didnt leave the normal green/veggie breakfast and dinner she usually gets because I didnt want to risk it sitting around too long in the people's care and getting bacteria. It corrected itself when she went back on her normal diet just as fast. I was surprised, to tell you the truth.

Thank you for leaving her wings. I agree with some of what you said, Monica about still partially flying but not so much the exercise. Climbing and stuff isn't as good as getting the heartrate up with flying. And even in the house, it doesnt compare to the long hourse spent outside flying if they werent captive. Although for some birds, handicapped or whatever of course, they have to get different treatment. And yes, I agree with the sometimes pecking order problem but that's what I meant about unnatural conditions. Even little zebra finches can be brutal and peck some poor little male seemingly for no reason, it's unbelievable. Same with one keeping the other from eating. But it's not like there's one "leader" and they all follow.
More like a bunch of 6 year olds all chasing the same soccer ball.

Now, a bossy hen, yeah...but I figured she's saying "hey if I have to push all these stupid eggs out, the least you can do is follow instructions" lol....like when you send your husband to the grocery store HA!

[Monica]

My flightless cherry head, she gets exercise by flapping her wings pretty hard, or when I get her to flap around the room for a couple mins while sitting on my hand. I can't get her to exercise in any other way, and I can't do the flaps too often or else she gets pissed. The tiel that clipped herself, if there is any possibility for that one wing to grow in all her flights, I'm sure she could probably fly. Indeed though, it can't compare to what they'd get in the wild.

As for the pecking order, it's seen in the Wild Parrots of Telegraph Hill. I've heard/read somewhere that there was a budgie in the flock, that was 'leading' the flock, and when it turned, so did the flock. There might be 'leaders', but not in the sense that they are the "all mighty boss". Within the flock there used to be a blue crown, and even though he followed them around, and defended the weak, he was otherwise excluded. When I fed the flock not too long ago, I noticed that babies were slower at getting food, as they had to watch out for the adults. Of course, once they found a spot in the flock, there were less issues, however the adults still squabbled over things. Mark Bittner noticed that males do fight over females, and they sometimes 'divorce and marry' another bird.



As far as plucking goes, that depends on the individual bird... Some are clippers, just removing the ends of feathers. Some are shredders, completely destroying the feather. Then there are pluckers... one who may remove just feathers. Some that may remove pin or blood feathers... (look for red skin) or some that do both. Then, worse case scenario, mutilators who make themselves bleed.