Please help with my inconsistently aggressive Lory! (*new*)

[LoryLady]

Hi All,

I've just found this forum, it's amazing! So many parrot lovers and great advice.

Background: Have had my little lady Monty (electric green scaly breasted Lorikeet) for 3.5 years now. Of course Monty was a boy, but the surprise egg she laid in a food bowl certainly put her gender to rest! She came fully hand reared from a specialist bird breeder in Sydney. While in the first 9 months or so she was very gentle, you know the drill - puberty hits and her b!tchiness started showing!

Have had a look at many of the threads about bird training, but much advice related to how to tame the bird, gain trust, perch train, etc. Monty is fearless around people. She knows I'm her mum, if I open the door to her cage she will come right out, jump on me and climb onto my shoulder. She shows no fear towards me at all. She chirps extra loud the second she sees me (my mother says she could tell when I came home because of Monty has her own call for me!) She has never had interactions with other birds, mirrors, or other people really - as it's only me who cares for her (so many people are terrified of birds!)

The behavioural problems/issues are:

1) Savage biting - if I try and remove her from my shoulder, arm, or anywhere else she will launch a savage attack on my hands. She is SO happy to see my arm/hand when it means she gets to come out of her cage, but taking her OFF my shoulder? That is like asking for a puncture wound and she'll bite everytime. I remove her by getting up close to her cage and kind of putting the door bit in between my head and her body and she will then grab onto the cage and climb off. Or I take off my bird shirt and put it in the cage.

- I can't stress enough that she will NOT allow herself to be touched or my hands to come anywhere near her when she's on me
- If she is not on me (climbing on the cage, sitting on the table or floor, etc) she loves having her whole neck and back scratched. She'll bend her neck over so my fingers get to the right spot. BUT occasionally she will do this thing that looks like a dominance display, where she will swing her head back up and stand on her tiptoes and stop me stratching her. Like she's going 'yeah sure it felt nice, but you ain't the boss of me!'

2) She doesn't want to do ANYTHING when out of the cage, except sit on my shoulder! She doesn't really seem to care for playing, which is very un-lorylike, isn't it? She seems to have no interest in any of her toys which she likes when inside the cage, even if I jingle them, or even try playing with them myself! She did have one jingly ball that she adored, but again would become very savage/protective when I touched it or my hand was anywhere near it - thinking she had bonded with this ball and was so aggressive over it, I removed this one. Have since replaced it with two smaller balls which also make a jingly noise when rattled but she doesn't care about them at all! When she's out of the cage and in unfamiliar territory, all she wants is my shoulder and to be right there. Nothing else. When she gets on my shoulder she will stay very quiet, apart from one or two trills really. No interest in my sparkly earrings or nose ring even!

- What kind of Lory doesn't want to play? They have a reputation as being the clowns of the bird world. She is always seems happy, chirping, trilling and stuff, but I would not call her a loud lory - at least she is much quieter than other rainbow lories that live around me! Those things are always screaming their heads off 24/7.

Must say, I feel I have contributed to her current behaviour (guilty parent much?) because I have grown fearful of ever showing her my fingers, so I rarely do now and when I do, I expect that bite to come. Also, I work 9-5 Mon-Fri so my main time with her is in the morning and on weekends. She probably leaves the cage about....once/twice a week. I know this is probably not enough..... Due to her being nippy and that I can't have liquid lory poo on my work clothes every morning, most mornings I open her cage door and let her sit on top of her cage and crawl around it, just for some stimulation in the morning.

One more thing - She's probably due for another wing clipping now, her last one was last year. However, she's only ever flown twice in her life, only a few metres each time and low to the ground. She scared herself silly both times - the look in her eyes is like 'F&*k I can fly?!?!'. Each time she took flight I got her wing clipped immediately afterwards. As such, her reaction to things is not to fly away, which is a good sign right? That she likes people and forgets to fly I mean....

Do you think that she feels above me in rank/pecking order? Should I stop allowing her to sit on my shoulder? Feel that I've unintentionally made her believe she's above me and it's her right to sit on my shoulder all the time.

Basically, what kind of training tips would you suggest for her? I have moved house 2 weeks ago and she will finally be allowed inside to play more and I really want to get started with some intensive behavioural therapy ASAP! I feel/hope that she has a good basis to to become a really great pet if these issues could be addressed and minimised. Of course, I will love her regardless, even if she never improves, because she's still a little character - but it would be great if she became a bit more socialised and lost a bit of aggression.

Any advice/suggestions/stories of your experiences would be greatly appreciated.

[jenseits]

I don't believe she bites because she feels dominant to you. I think it's very simply that she likes being on you, prefers it to the alternative, and has learned that by biting you she gets to have her way.

Most people would say that you shouldn't let her on your shoulder until she learns to step up nicely when asked. I agree with that if you think there's a chance she might bite your face.

But, frankly, I also have a bird who would bite me if I presented my finger while he's on my shoulder. He just doesn't like fingers very much and is more used to stepping up onto an arm (and it's pretty hard to present an arm to a bird on your shoulder). But he's pretty good about stepping off onto his cage or his stand, if I just lean over. Will Monty do that? Or will she only get off if you basically "scrape" her off onto her cage?

A couple things you might want to try:
- solidly reinforce step-ups from other locations so the request becomes second nature to her (make sure she actually gets a reward for stepping up)
- use a hand-held perch to ask her to step off your shoulder instead of your hands so you can at least avoid getting bitten
- make whatever comes after stepping off a lot of fun, so that leaving your shoulder leads to something at least as good (if not better) than staying
- get her to step off your shoulder and then let her back on, so that complying with your request doesn't cost her anything

If getting off your shoulder almost always leads to her being put back in her cage or you going away and ignoring her for a few minutes, you can see how she might fight not to leave. So you need to figure out what would positively reinforce her to get off your shoulder. Would a special, yummy treat lure her off? What about extra scritches immediately after getting off? (When my sun conure is on my shoulder, I lean over his cage door, tap the door and say "step off". When he gets off he gets a "good boy" and a safflower seed. This took a while to train, but now he's pretty good about doing it because he knows there's a 85% chance he'll get a treat.)

I have a couple posts on my blog that might be of interest:
- Allowing Birds On Your Shoulder — OK or Not? Best in Flock – Parrot Blog (about height and dominance)
- How to Get a Parrot to Go Back Inside His Cage Best in Flock – Parrot Blog (this one is about getting a bird back in his cage, but I think you can extrapolate a similar message about getting a bird off your shoulder)

It does sound like she needs more out of cage time too. Can you give her more time on top of her cage? Not sure if lories forage, but maybe some foraging activities will help keep her occupied when she's not attached to you?

Hope that gives you some ideas to think about.

[chapala]

I would not allow her on the shoulder at all if she acts aggressive when you attempt to get her off. The shoulder is a privilege for a bird and has to be earned, it's not a right. Biting means no shoulder time. Try to block her from getting to your shoulder, or if she manages it, immediately remove her. (I have been known to take my shirt off when my re-homed P'let refused to step up from the shoulder and tried to hide behind my neck. He has learned good shoulder manners and is welcome there now.)

If you can develop others ways of interacting with her other than her using your shoulder as a perch, that would be helpful I think. You might try simple trick training with lots of positive rewards (treats), and a clicker or not as you prefer. Turning around on the perch, wings up, etc., with her on a stand might be things you can try. There are lots of sites on-line about positive reinforcement training, and a Yahoo forum, Bird-click, to help give you ideas on working with her.

If she's only allowed out of her cage once or twice a week, that is very little handling for her to remain tame and friendly and responsive to you. I can understand not handling her in the morning with work clothes on, but how about when you come home and on weekends?

I don't think dominance is a factor, but rather she sees your shoulder as her perch, her territory and is unwilling to give it up when you ask. For that reason, I wouldn't allow her to be there until she learns to step up. Is she stick-trained? If not, that would be step #1! Good luck!

[LoryLady]

Thanks for the feedback Jenseits & Chapala, it's very helpful!

She's not ever bit my face before. In fact, I remember she used to love it when I kissed her beak and made a big 'kiss' noise..... though I'd be a BIT hesitant to put my lips to her beak now.

When you say stick trained - do you mean that she'll just jump up onto a stick when you say 'step up' ? Because she does this a lot. I often use one of her perches to get her to step down from the top of the cage and she has no problems with this command, so that's a start.

I think you are right that when I take her off my shoulder and show her my hands, it's usually when I'm trying to catch her and put her back in the cage. Oh also, when I said I 'scraped' her onto the cage it just means that i get right up close to the cage and bend over, so she's facing the side bars of the cage - then when she sees it up close and can feel me bending over she has little choice really but to choose to grab the cage!

Unfortunately now that it's winter, even though I come home about 6pm it's quite dark then and she's already gone to bed. Daylight savings is the best, because I get more time with her at the end of a day.

Routine is I feed her at 7am and let her come out of the cage and she will crawl all over her cage, around it etc and call me for her breakfast. Then I feed her and must go to work. My boyfriend takes the cover off her so she sits in the sun in the atrium during the day, which comes right off the lounge room and he opens the doors so she sees people during the day. But I'm really not comfortable with anyone else opening the cage and letting her out but me. Just because she could get stepped on, or bite someone else and they might shake her off and I would never forgive anyone if she was injured while I wasn't there - nobody else would know what to do!

So my time with her at the minute is mainly weekends.

Your advice has really motivated me to be consistent with her and try to change my behaviour so that she can understand it in her Lory language, if that makes sense. No more shoulder till she learns, I promise!

The time spent with her has to be actual training and learning time - like school! Not just her jumping straight onto my shoulder and then not doing anything.....

Do you have any opinions on training results from male VS female birds? Have heard male scaly are often more affectionate and less nippy than the females, due to hormones.

When is the peak hormonal time for a bird? Is it spring? (cause of the mating instinct) ?

[LoryLady]

Also, having re-read my posts can see that my fear of her biting is probably making her less tame because I have become hesitant to touch her as much (kissing and finger 'step up' commands). Guess I'll just have to psych myself up for a few bites to come my way!

Can you advise on gloves or no gloves? Is it more beneficial if she sees my actual hand, not my hand covered in a glove? Or should she feel me hold her so she can get used to it again?

[jenseits]

Originally Posted by LoryLady

Also, having re-read my posts can see that my fear of her biting is probably making her less tame because I have become hesitant to touch her as much (kissing and finger 'step up' commands). Guess I'll just have to psych myself up for a few bites to come my way!

Can you advise on gloves or no gloves? Is it more beneficial if she sees my actual hand, not my hand covered in a glove? Or should she feel me hold her so she can get used to it again?

Sounds like you think you need to "suck it up" and allow yourself to get bitten, which I wouldn't advise. If she's being nippy, don't risk it. Just interact with her in a way that's positive and doesn't lead to biting. You can have lots of fun bonding time without necessarily having to handle a nippy bird. I think all you need in order for her to stay tame is more time interacting with her, not necessarily holding her.

For example, you can do step-ups and carry her around on a stick. You can target train her. You can teach her to run an obstacle course or fetch toys or put a ball in a cup or climb up and down a ladder, you could sing with her, play peek-a-boo, etc. Lots of options for interacting with a bird that don't involve getting bitten.

If the issue is really just your own anxiety about getting bitten, then working on some training goals will help you as well. After you've spent a lot of time working with her without getting bitten, I think your fear of the bite will fade too.

I don't know your situation, but it also sounds like it might be helpful if you allowed your boyfriend or others to allow her out (maybe start with them doing it while you're around?), especially since you aren't able to do it daily. While it's easy to think that no one else is up to the task, it's really not healthy for your bird not to be well socialized to other people. She shouldn't be so, so dependent on only you if there are other alternatives available. Is there a particular reason you don't trust them or is it just a general over-protectiveness ?

[LoryLady]

Thanks Jenseits. I will read over the tricks & training section for some details on things to teach and ways to interact that won't lead to biting. No more shoulders for Monty for awhile!

I'm not comfortable with her being out of the cage if I'm not there, just because nobody else knows how to handle her or anything. Am concerned about her getting injured when I'm not around, or possibly if she flew into something if she got scared and became concussed. She doesn't fly but guaranteed it would be the time when I wasn't there that something would happen. I know it seems unfair that she only has serious out of cage time on the weekends, but it seems the better option than having her escape and die.... or be stood on and die :(

Her cage is large - my Eastern Rosella (rip Lou) used to live in it, so it's a very decent size cage for her - Scalies are such tiny Lories, she's only about a 1/3 the size of a Rainbow! It's not the ideal situation I know, but it's making the best of it.

Am going to begin with the training and interaction tricks now, so that all the time spent with her is positive and learning time, so she becomes more socialised. I'd be more comfortable at the thought of my boyfriend letting her out when I'm not around if they have spent more time bonding first, cause he's not comfortable around her.

Honestly, all my friends and family are either terrified or clueless about birds. My boyfriend still keeps asking if we can put some zebra finches in her cage so she'd have some 'friends' to play with, even though I keep telling him he'll have finch blood on his hands to deal with! We then looked into another Lory for company. The breeder said she can come in and see if she bonds with any particular birds. But have been hesitant to get her a friend because she will lose even more tameness....... also, what if the other Lory is really loud? Have kind of lucked out as she isn't a screecher!